Today’s Guest

About Jo Casey

Jo Casey is a certified life coach, trainer and coach mentor.  She’s British, slightly nerdy and allergic to the marketing bullsh*t in the coaching industry. Founder of jocasey.com, podcaster, speaker, and writer for Coaching Blueprint, Mind Body Green and Tiny Buddha.

 Things that make me scream with glee: Freshly washed bed linen, watching my husband get all ‘handy’ around the place (DIY I mean), yellow wedge sandals, fabric stores, the sound of my kids giggling, Jesus Christ Superstar the musical.

Spirit Animal: Lesley Knope

Why you should listen to me about coaching: I’ve been training, coaching and mentoring coaches for 14 years and I built my own coaching and training business after a lot of initial trial and error. I’ve been where you are now and I love showing coaches like you how to pull out all of the things that will make your business stand out and attract the right clients to you, without wasting a lot of time on useless and expensive shiny objects.

What You’ll Learn

• What makes an online business rockstar – the elements that make them stand out from the crowd
• Why you need to choose the business model for where you’re at
• The three foundation pieces you need to make big things happen in your business
• How to bring in money while you’re putting those foundation bits into place
• Why resilience is so important in the online business world

Things We Discussed

• Making Oprah podcast 
• Fabeku Fatunmise 
• Kat Loterzo 
• Leonie Dawson 
• Amy Porterfield
• John Lee Dumas 

It would make me so happy if you could take a minute and share this with other women entrepreneurs on Twitter. If you enjoy the Business Mindset Podcast, please click to tweet:

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Transcript

The transcript for this episode can also be downloaded here (no opt-in required).

Jo + Holly: Why Following the Internet Rockstars is Ruining your Business

Intro

HW:     Hello and welcome to the Business Mindset Podcast, episode 186. This is your host Holly Worton and I am back with another co-hosted episode with the fabulous Jo Casey.

Today, we are going to talk a little bit about why following the Internet Rockstars is ruining your business. Yes, that sounds very grim, and yes it can be helpful for new entrepreneurs to follow some of the bigger names in business so you can get an idea of what is possible in the world of online business, but it can also hurt you. And in this episode, we are going to talk about why we think that’s so.

So, what are you going to learn today? You are going to learn: what makes an online business Rockstar? The elements that make them stand out from the crowd. We are going to talk about why you need to choose the business model for where you are at, not where the Rockstars are at. We are going to talk about the three foundation pieces that you need to make big things happen in your business. We are going to talk about how to bring in money while you are putting those foundation bits into place. And, finally, we are going to talk about why resilience is so important in the online world. So, hope you find this interesting and useful, I think this is something that we have kind of thinking about for a while, and finally decided to do an episode on it. We are going to talk about all kinds of exciting things, business Rockstar related and how that serves you and how it doesn’t. So, thank you so much for tuning in and hope you enjoy the episode.

HW:     Hello it is Holly Worton and I am back with Jo Casey for another co-hosted episode. We are going to be talking about why following the Internet Rockstars is ruining your business. [laughing] This is something that Jo has been super-passionate about, [JC: laughing] she has been working on a blog post on, so that’s going to kind of be a companion to this episode. So, I think this is an interesting topic, because following the Internet Rockstars can be useful because it helps you, kind of, get an idea of where you can be headed in your business, in the future. But it can also be detrimental, because it can be really depressing to see all these people who are doing these amazing things, and they do this launch. and they get like thousands of people, and it can lead to you thinking, as a new business owner, that this is the norm, when actually it is the exception. So, Jo tell us a little bit about what your thoughts have been around this, because I know this is something that you have kind of been thinking about for a while. [laughing]. And something you have been dealing with your clients in terms of people thinking that they can just do a challenge or launch a thing, and get like amazing results.

JC:      Yeah, so, I think we have probably all been through this, and being one of the dinosaurs of the internet now, having been on it like four or five years now, you kind of go through these phases in your business and one of the things that I always say is that I want to save people from the mistakes that I made. So, that is just a caveat, I am saying all this with love and because I have been there, but please stop looking at Amy Porterfield and John Lee Dumas and you know all of those kind of big Internet Rockstars, who have multiple six-and-seven-figure-businesses and comparing your business to theirs. Because what I find is that the way that you build a business is very different at different stages, you need different business models at different stages, and one of the things that I am seeing happening, repeatedly, is that people who are just starting out who then decide that they are going to do something because they have seen one of the, kind of the big Rockstars do it, and it falls flat, because they don’t realise that it is a different model.

So, I will give you an example. So, you and I have recently run a challenge [HW: um hmm], and it has been really successful from you know from our perspective, but there was a time when I would have thought that the numbers that we had for that were like really disappointing. Because we had around about 100 people signed up for that; but between you and I we have an audience, a list size of a couple of 1000. [HW: yep, yep]. And it has taken a number of years to build up to that level. And so, at our level, if a challenge for us, and okay we didn’t put lots into Facebook ads because [HW: no] because we both pretty much hate Facebook ads at this stage [laughing]; we did do it kind of organically and word of mouth but we still had to put quite a lot of work in to get those 100 people on board. And then you have quite a lot of work when you do it. So, it is not like it is an easy thing: “I will just send out an email and it just suddenly fills up.”

HW:     No, and this is something that we had been planning and I think it is important to say, we had been planning it since what November?

JC:      October! I was looking at our list and kind of going, wow, we really started planning this in October; so it takes a lot of work. [HW: yes].

So, I have recently known somebody who has just started out in their business, was putting all of their foundational pieces in place, and then, because, she is in a number of different entrepreneurial Facebook groups somebody had said “oh my god you should totally do a challenge, my friend did one and she got 300 people on it”. [HW: hmm] So, this person then deviated from all of those foundational pieces that she was doing, and were starting to work, with her very beginning baby business, and put a ton of work into launching a challenge. I mean, you know, she has done so much stuff, and so far, and this is after weeks and weeks of trying to promote it and things like that, she has not had anybody sign up. [HW: ugh] And she is devastated because it is really, really, disappointing, but had she had a slightly more realistic view of how it works, and I always say I walk this line between, you know I really want to be a cheerleader for people but I also want to save them a lot of the, kind of, hard work and stuff. Then, you know I would probably have said to her, you know, “don’t do that” or maybe “do it in a slightly different way”, because there are lots and lots of moving parts. And, I think we don’t talk about the, kind of, realistic expectations of what you can expect from launching a group programme, or when you should launch a group programme, I know we have talked about that. But, also, I think there is a real lack of those tales of internet reality. We are saturated with tales of six-figure launches and over a thousand people in my group; but, what we don’t hear about, or on very rare occasions, are the times when people launch something and there was “crickets”, or when you had to give the refunds because you only had two people sign up, or when you do the webinar and there is no one on it, but you do it anyway. [HW: Umm] And you and I have been talking about this the other day, and realised that we have experiences of that, and we know that in our peer group everyone has had experiences like that; but I think that is something that people need to hear a bit more of, partly because…sorry go on.

HW:     No sorry, I was just going to say, partly because people aren’t talking about it that much; I mean when I have a one-to-one chat with friends, sometimes these things will come up, but it is like, I think a lot of people are afraid to talk about their failures because “what if I look like a failure myself?” “What if I, because I am feeding energy into talking about this, I attract more failures?” But I don’t think it is failure I think it is just learning…like, what can I learn from this experience so I can do it differently next time? What was it that contributed to me getting no people on my challenge? Or, no people on my webinar? And how can I you know avoid that the next time?

JC:      Yeah, so there’s that really useful feedback about “okay what do I need to tweak about my strategy or my message, or… you know whatever that was”. But, also, I think that type of stuff builds resilience, because, it is those moments where you just go “oh my god, I am such a failure, it is a disaster”, and it is then: can you pick yourself up the next day and start again? And I think that’s the real test of whether you can do the entrepreneurial stuff, you still get to feel crap about it [HW: yeah] but can you pick yourself up? Or do you go into blaming everybody: ”why did nobody warn me about this?” Or “I am so rubbish, I am just not cut out for this”. But, actually, this is part of the journey, this is…

HW:     Hmm because that is how you learn.

JC:      Yeah exactly, exactly.

HW:     And I think that this word that you have used, I know this is a word that you have used a lot in your business, but I don’t think it is heard enough in online business world: resilience. [JC: yeah.]

So, tell us about what is resilience, we know what the word means [laughing], but like what does it mean in the terms of, the online business world, why do we need it and why is it so important?

JC:      Well, resilience, the dictionary definition of resilience, and by the way this is nerd alert people because um, for many years, and I am still when I go and do corporate work, I am introduced as a “resilience expert” so just a warning there. {laughing} Holly so I am leaving it in your hands to go: “okay Jo enough”. So, the dictionary definition of resilience is, it come from physics or mechanics, or one of those: it is the way a structure or an object can be put under pressure and then return to the same shape afterwards, when the pressure is alleviated. In human-terms what we are talking about is: do you have the ability to pick yourself up from failures, to carry on functioning and staying well through pressure, through stresses, through ups and downs, through life, basically? And, also, are you able to take a healthy amount of risk, and I am talking healthy amount, and I am not saying: “I am going to re-mortgage my house and spend the money on Facebook ads, because I know it will pay off” I am not talking about that type of stuff. But the risk of say, putting yourself out there even though you know you may fail, because you know you are resilient enough to be able to pick yourself up afterwards, if it goes wrong.

HW:     And I think that is something that is really, really, important because if you are new to business, and if you are new to online business, there are so many ‘learning’ points where you feel like a failure, and you feel like absolute crap because you have had the webinar where you sat there alone. I mean, I remember, when was this, it must have been a couple of years ago, I ran a series of webinars, so it was like the same webinar but at different times of the day, and different days of the week that kind of thing. So, I think I did a morning-one and an afternoon-one and an evening-one and so I would run it a couple of times and had recordings of I think the first two, and the third one, which I think was an evening one, no-one showed up for. And so, I thought, ‘okay I am just going to start the webinar and start delivering it, because I know that sometimes people show up late, so I started delivering the webinar and for the first 15 minutes I delivered the webinar like there were people there, and there was no one there. And my standard kind of waiting for people, whether it is a meeting, a call, is 15 minutes. So, if someone doesn’t show up after 15 minutes, my standard thing is to send a message and say: “I hope everything is okay, I hope you haven’t had like an emergency, I am leaving”. So, I just silently ended the webinar {laughing} and just went on and had a bath {laughing} because that’s what I needed! I figured I have got the recording, so people who have signed up for this webinar I can send them the recording from the previous one, but I am not going to sit through and do an hour webinar on my own. And I felt awful about it, but you know like I said, I had two other webinars previously in the week, that people had showed up for, shown up for, and so I just used the recordings from those and went on with my day.

JC:      Yeah, you have to be able to do that stuff, because the other option is: ‘I’m going to give up, I am not going to do this anymore.’ [HW: yeah! No, that didn’t even occur to me {laughing}]

I have to say that still occurs to me fairly regularly when I have those things! I have done webinars like that before as well. I launched my first group programme and only two people signed up and I had to go back to those two people and kind of go: it is not actually going to work in the same way, but what I did is I went back to those same people and, even though I felt so embarrassed [HW: yes!] that I hadn’t been able to fill this programme, I went back and said “look for the same price (because I was doing it as a beta at the time), how about we do the sessions but we do them one-on-one?” [HW: yeah]. And so even though in some ways it was twice the work, because I did twice the length of the number of sessions, actually the benefit that those people got was amazing, both of them went on and became huge champions of my work, and kind of full-paying clients later on. But at the time it took so much courage to go back and admit that it is not filled I can’t run the group programme; it felt horrible! [HW: yeah] …absolutely horrible!

HW:     Yeah, because it is like public shame, because now people know…that only two people signed up, rather, you can’t hide it.

JC:      Exactly, exactly. What has been really enlightening as I have kind of continued on this journey is you know I do get to talk to people who are you know peers or have been in the industry longer, or are further ahead in their businesses and they all have similar stories. You know, I remember talking to a really high profile coach, who has an enormous mailing list and hundreds of thousands of Facebook likes on her page, and things like that; and she said that she had launched a programme the year before when she still had thousands and thousands of people on her list, and it was a flop, she didn’t fill it and she had to cancel it.

HW:     Wow, well I think another interesting thing – she has been very public about this so I feel like it is okay to say it – Leonie Dawson, who is huge, huge, HUGE has just cancelled her live event in Australia that she was going to be running, I think, in a couple of months, because she only had, I think, 25 people sign up for it and she needed at least 100 people to cover the cost. And she has got a massive list, massive list, and this is not the first time that she has run this live event, she ran it last year and it was amazing, people got amazing results from it, people were raving about it, so you know some things are tricky. Live events can be tricky, because you have got to get people travelling to your place, and sometimes not even people with the massive lists, I mean, she’s got to have thousands and thousands and thousands of people on her list and, you know, it didn’t make it happen. So…

JC:      I love the fact that she shared that stuff, because I do think it is part of the reality and what we need to be hearing, because, otherwise, there is so much shame that is around. And, also, a lot of the marketing that happens online is very shame-based. You know so it is all about making you feel bad, and the way to feel better is to buy their thing. [HW: yeah!] And, people selling to the online coaching entrepreneur industry use that as well; you know, there are lots and lots of good guys out there but there are also an awful lot of people who are using this you know: “If you really want to invest in your business then you have to be able to spend the $30,000”, or you know “if you are really serious, or, if you want to be a success then you have to do this”. And so, already, shame is a real kind of powerful currency that is used online and I just think we need a healthy dose of reality to be able to say to people, you know there is no shame in launching something and it is failing, actually, that is the definition of being an entrepreneur.

HW:     Yes, doing it over and over again, and picking yourself up and trying something different; not doing the exact same thing next time, because if you are going to learn from the experience, that means you need to figure out what went wrong and try something new. And then do something differently and see what works; it is trial and error.

JC:      It is! and these tales of what appears to be really easy success, because you know in all credit to people like Amy Porterfield and John Lee Dumas, theirs wasn’t an overnight success either; they have been working their arses off for years to do this; and now they have the huge platform. I remember talking to Marc Mawhinney who has the Natural Born Coaches Podcast and he now has a very healthy, I believe, six-figure coaching business but when he started out he was doing his podcast every day. So, it was his daily podcast for about two years; which, I just can’t even imagine. [HW: I can’t imagine that either]. And I said to him: “how long were you doing the podcast before you got your first client?” And he said, I think it was, five months, it was definitely months rather than weeks; and he, I think he had been in Real Estate before and he said: “I had many moments of saying to myself: “gee this coaching business is a lot harder than I had been led to believe”. But he kept going with that, and he built this you know enormous platform, a bit like John Lee Dumas did. He was someone else who started saying “I am going to do a daily podcast” and people thought he was crazy. You know it takes an enormous amount of work to do. [HW: hmm yeah] And it paid off for him because he was one of the first people doing it. Now, if you do a daily podcast, it is going to be that bit tougher, because you are not the first in the industry. [HW: um hmm yeah] So, again is that the best model for you? Most of the people I work with, their biggest priority is: “I need to be bringing some income in, I want to be earning some income with my business.” In all honesty, launching a group programme when you have no list and no community around you, and you don’t have a strong message and you don’t yet know yet how to stand out in the market, that’s not… that’s going to be a huge amount of work for very little reward. [HW: yeah, yeah]

So, would it be beneficial to talk about maybe what some of the things that we think people should do, because I think it is really important to realise that there are different business models work for different businesses and at different stages of business.

HW:     Yes definitely.

JC:      So, somebody with a huge audience can put out a sales page, put out a few emails and fill a programme.

HW:     Yep, and I think it is important for us to, I know we discussed this a little bit before we got on the actual recording of this, is what are some of the things that these high-profile people have, that makes it easier for them, that we, or our listeners as kind of smaller business owners, do not have. Or, are still developing, or are in the process of kind of working on? So, as you have said, they have got a different business model, because they have got this massive platform. How did they get that massive platform? I think, part of it, as we have discussed is: a lot of these people have really strong personalities, they have got a clear message, a strong message and they are not afraid to stand out. So, if we think about people like Leonie Dawson , she has got a very strong personality, she is very different, she is very unique, she has got Asperger’s, as do I – I am still trying to figure out who I am in being me and in expressing my weird quirks – she has been expressing her weird aspie quirks for years, which is very endearing to some people, some people love that. She is like marmite: you either love her or you hate her. The same goes for people like: Kat Loterzo  what are some other names? People that you can think of that are like really strong personalities?

JC:      I am thinking Fabeku Fatunmise who is fabulous in every way, has a very strong personality; he is the type of person, we were talking about this before we started recording, he can put something out to his Facebook community and just say: “I am launching this, it is going to be x amount, here is the link to sign up” and he will fill that, without any other promo, because people either love him or they hate him. They become super fans. It is not just having a large personality, he is also really, really, good at what he does, as is Leonie Dawson, but there is something about…he is not afraid to stand out. He is who he is, you know what you are getting, and he is really clear about what the benefits are of working with him, and who the right fit is for his programmes and who isn’t.

HW:     Mm. And he has got a super clear message.

JC:      Yes, and I think that’s one of the biggest battle that you have when you are first starting out is, how do you get that really clear message about what you stand for? Because, you know it is scary taking a stand on something.

HW:     Mm yeah, it is, it is. And moving on from that since you have kind of transitioned, I think it is the perfect time to talk about: what are the foundation pieces you need in order to kind of start expecting bigger results and building up to, eventually, if that is one of your business goals, becoming one of the internet Rockstars? You have got to have a super clear message, and I know for me that has taken a really long time to develop, and I think I am still not 100% there. I feel like last year was a big year of clarity for me in what my message is, in terms of helping women entrepreneurs clear their fears, blocks and stuff that are holding them back from achieving their business goals. But that’s – oh my god, that took me about a year to figure that out – a year of working with people, a year of reading their intake forms and seeing what the heck results people were getting from me, and how I help people; it is really hard to articulate, I mean how was it for you, getting your message?

JC:      Same, it is evolving; I can remember the first kind of couple of years online, just kind of thinking, “I don’t know what it is, I don’t know what it is”. Now what is really, interesting is….I am going through a bit of a, not a rebrand but, upgrading my messaging I think, is my message is actually now going to be pulling together all of the work that I have done, all of the things that have led me up to this point. It is almost like I am properly stepping into myself and shedding this kind of, almost like a bit of a mask that I think we feel we sometimes have to put on. I mean don’t get me wrong, I am pretty “what you see is what you get” when you are with me, but in terms of the work that I do and the message that I have, it is evolving into something that is even more aligned. It is like an onion, I think, you know, it is an iteration process.

HW:     Yes, yep, definitely; and I think that is something you get from expressing yourself, whether it through a podcast, or a blog post, or videos, and talking, talking, talking about what you do and working, working, working with clients. It is not nothing that you are going to nail, probably, I think for 95% of people, on day-one, month-one, week-one, of your business. It really takes time to get clear on what that message is; so, I think that’s the really first important thing.

Next thing is solving your visibility crap. We are talking about these people with big personalities that aren’t afraid to stand out, well a lot of coaches and online business owners, are afraid to stand out. That, for me, was one of my biggest things that held me back in my business for so many years, and that’s why I wrote one of my books on Business Visibility, because you have got to figure out what your particular visibility fears are, and clear them, so that you can make it easier for you to get yourself out there. How has visibility been for you Jo?

JC:      Oh agonising! [HW: laughing] Absolutely agonising; I think it is for the majority of women, and I think the reason for that is because to have a great business, to have a good business, a successful business, you need to be able to stand out and take up space and have opinions and be seen, and yet to be a “good woman”, we have been led [to believe] is to smooth things over, to not make a fuss, to not take up too much space, to not be too loud; so it kind of goes against all of our feminine conditioning – the phrase that I use for it. So, I think, in order to do, to be visible, whether that be even in the traditional workplace, it requires you to almost violate that feminine conditioning and so stuff is going to come up. It is going to be…so, if you don’t have tools, or some kind of support in your corner when that happens, because it absolutely will, you are going to just freeze and you are going to just want to hide. And I just think it is inevitable; so absolutely being able to deal with that visibility question, that tension, is vital.

HW:     Yes, it is absolutely vital; and these are kind of the two pieces. Having that clear message and solving your visibility stuff, so that you can get out there and stand out from the crowd. That’s what is going to lead to the third point, which is building a thriving community online and/or a list where you can connect with these people who are interested in who you are, and what you do, and you know in working with you. But, it takes time, and/or money, to build this, but you have got to really have that clear message, be not afraid to get out there, and put yourself out there so you can build this community.

JC:      Absolutely, and I think that is where some of the confusion comes for people, because, building a list, building a community does take time, and you do need those pieces in place first, so the question then is: “well, how do I make income while I am doing that?”. So, you make income by focussing on by doing the work. So, for me, particularly working with coaches and healers and women entrepreneurs, it is about making human connections whether that be online, or face-to-face and focussing on filling your one-on-one Practice and as you are doing the visibility stuff and as you are doing that kind of list-building stuff, because that will take more time and you need to be bringing income while you are doing it. Plus, while you are doing the work, while you are filling your one-on-one practice that gives you so much more insight into who you love working with, which in-turn will help with your messaging, which in-turn will help with what products and services you want to create further along the line. But, going back to that, if you don’t have those first two pieces in place, you are not going to be able to do any of it, so it all fits together. The problem that I see time and time again, is that lots of people jump to the whole kind of “I am going to launch a group programme”; or “I am going to do some list building”. But, they don’t know who their audience is, they don’t know what their message is, and so, it is really hard work for very, very, little reward. Which is kind of sad, it makes me weep a little bit inside, because I want to save people from doing that. I also believe you can make a really good sustainable business first year out of the gate, if you focus on the right things.

HW:     Yeah, exactly, exactly.

JC:      But if you expect that you are going to be making six figures or that you are going to have 10,000 people on your email list; unless you have $10,000 to throw on Facebook ads, you are going to be really disappointed, because I think that’s where a real point of tension in our industry.

HW:     And, even then, there are no guarantees; I mean it takes time to figure out Facebook ads. I have done tons of training on Facebook ads, my area of expertise used to be social-media marketing, I still haven’t cracked Facebook ads. You have got to have the right opt-in for your tribe, and again that takes time, you have got to figure out your message, you have got to figure out your community, and you have got to have the right opt-in, the right sales page, the right ad copy, the right ad image. There are so many elements that go into cracking Facebook ads so that they work for you. So, even if you throw $10,000 at Facebook ads, that is not guaranteed to work. [JC: no]

So, in summary wrapping all this up, how are you feeling now about how we have presented the case for why following the Internet Rockstars is ruining your business?

JC:      I hope, again I come back to this dilemma, I want you to really hear me, if you are listening to this, to say that it is absolutely possible to build a really good, sustainable, business; it is absolutely possible to build a multiple-six-figure business online; I know people who have done it, I am on the way to doing it myself, absolutely it is possible, but you need to have those first pieces in place, first, and you know I would say this but working with somebody, working with a coach, working with a business coach, working with somebody who is going to be able to help you with all that, will absolutely accelerate your process, and also help you to be able to focus down on what is going to work for you at this stage in your business rather than jumping 17 steps ahead and following something that you know maybe John Lee Dumas has been doing, or Leonie Dawson has been doing, because you are not in the same circumstances. I really want you to have this balance, because it will save yourself the time and the extra work and the…some of the disappointment and the heartache, and just go into this with open eyes and also go into it knowing you are going to fail. [HW: yeah] And be okay with that. I am not saying that you have to like it – because none of us do!

HW:     But take advantage of those failures and take the learning points from it, rather than just being angry and sad and depressed, make into a learning experience. And also I think it can be useful to listen to people’s kind of stories of growth. You know a lot of the online Rockstars will tell stories about how they grew and talk about their failures and mistakes and things and I think that is really useful to learn from too. How they became who they are, I mean I was just recently watching, I mean listening to the Making Oprah podcast  have you listened to that? [JC: yes]. I loved it so much it was so great, it talked about from the very first moment of when she went for her audition to the beginnings of her show to how she got to where she is today. It was fantastic, because it teaches you, I mean you see her now and you are like: “oh my god she is amazing she is huge” but how did she get there? And that podcast tells the story, I think it is really great. So, the more you can hear these stories, of how people, it also talks about her failures and mistakes that she made along the way. So, that’s really, really, useful because you can see how these people have, you know, had ups and downs of where they were in the beginning to where they are now; so, hearing stories like that I think can also be really helpful.

JC:      Yes, definitely; I love that podcast.

HW:     So, I think it is about time for us to wrap up this episode, I hope our listeners have found this useful. I think we have been specific in talking about, you know some of the foundation pieces that you need in place in order to get to where you want to be. It is not always detrimental to be following these internet Rockstars, but if you are not following them with the right perspective I think it can be painful and difficult and not necessarily useful to your business.

So, thank you for joining us today and thank you Jo for exploring this topic with me. {laughing} And we will be back next month for our next co-hosted episode.   So, thank you very much.

Thank you for listening and remember to visit hollyworton.com/186 for the show notes on this episode. Thank you.