Today’s Guest

About Jo Casey

Jo Casey is a certified life coach, trainer and coach mentor.  She’s British, slightly nerdy and allergic to the marketing bullsh*t in the coaching industry. Founder of jocasey.com, podcaster, speaker, and writer for Coaching Blueprint, Mind Body Green and Tiny Buddha.

 Things that make me scream with glee: Freshly washed bed linen, watching my husband get all ‘handy’ around the place (DIY I mean), yellow wedge sandals, fabric stores, the sound of my kids giggling, Jesus Christ Superstar the musical.

Spirit Animal: Lesley Knope

Why you should listen to me about coaching: I’ve been training, coaching and mentoring coaches for 14 years and I built my own coaching and training business after a lot of initial trial and error. I’ve been where you are now and I love showing coaches like you how to pull out all of the things that will make your business stand out and attract the right clients to you, without wasting a lot of time on useless and expensive shiny objects.

What You’ll Learn

• What it looks like and feels like behind the scenes when upleveling and rebranding a website
• How Jo + Holly knew when it was time for a new website
• How Holly rebranded her website in just two days
• Where we moved from and where we are now in business
• Why politics triggered Jo’s change in message
• What it looked like when things that were simmering came to the surface
• How to move from what you don’t want to what you do want
• How to see the things you’re too close to see in your business
• The only way to get out of the messy middle that you experience in between

Things We Discussed

• Holly’s website
• Jo’s website
• No Limits 
• Lisa Wechtenhiser 
• Workcation weekends

How to Subscribe

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Related episodes

• [R2B 99] How to Keep Your WordPress Website Glitch Free, with Natalia Real
• [SHP 47] How to Get the Website of Your Dreams, with Lisa McLoughlin

Transcript

The transcript for this episode can also be downloaded here (no opt-in required).

A Tale of Two Websites, with Holly Worton + Jo Casey

HW:      Hello and welcome to the Business Mindset Podcast, episode 194. This is your host Holly Worton and I am back with another co-hosted episode with the fabulous Jo Casey.

            Today we are going to talk about a tale of two websites, or a tale of two up-levels. So, basically, Jo and I for the last I would say five or six months, have been going through, separately, kind of our own up-levelling processes. Where we have been stepping up in a new and a bigger way with our businesses and we both recently launched new websites to express these changes in who we are and how we are stepping up with our businesses and our business message. So, we wanted to share our respective stories with you, so you can understand, kind of, the stuff that goes on behind a business pivot, so you can know: when it is time to do this in your business; how to do it; and what it is like from the back-end – because from the front-end it can look super shiny, and exciting, and brilliant, and just fabulous, and it is! But there is a whole murky middle that you have to go through, well you may; there is a whole murky middle that we both went through to get there and often you don’t see that because people don’t talk about that so much.

So, in this episode, Jo and I kind of interview each other about our respective processes and how we went through this ‘messy middle’ and stepped out on the other side with new websites, new message, slightly new business. So, it is kind of an evolution in both of our businesses. So, hope you find this useful, as always, we will have the show notes with the links that we talked about; and hope you find this useful.

JC:       Hello! My name is Jo Casey and I am here with Holly Worton. Welcome to our monthly joint podcast episode, we are going to do something a tiny bit different this week: we are going to talk about up-levelling and re-branding, and pivots, and how to know when to change direction and how to do that. And the way that we are going to do this is, effectively Holly and I are going to interview each other and describe our own experiences, because we have both recently gone through this process ourselves, and we thought it might be interesting to share our experiences of it, see if you can relate, and whether there are some lessons that we can share from that. So, hi Holly, it is lovely to talk to you again, it feels like it has been weeks and weeks and weeks!

HW:      I know, it is great to be back! I have missed our episodes.

JC:       I know, me too, me too! So, you have been through a re-brand recently, you have a shiny, beautiful new website and slightly different message, it is an evolution of your messaging. So, talk me through a little bit about that came about, and when you knew that you wanted to change what you were doing originally.

HW:      Well, I have been going through a kind of transition since late last year, so I would say for about the last, maybe five or six months, so I recently developed a new technique for how I work with clients; and I have been testing it out on myself, I started testing it out on other people and I only just recently started taking paying clients in this technique but it is a completely different way of working with people, and it has a very different feel. So, I could sense that I was changing, not only as a result of the work that I was doing with myself, but also as the result of using this technique with myself and with other people. And so, I was just feeling differently, I felt like I was starting to, kind of, up-level in way, releasing lots of my own mind crap as I was stepping up. And it got to the point where every time I looked at my website I just felt really uncomfortable. It was like a dress that you have grown out of or something; and the sleeves are too short, and it is weirdly short on the bottom, and it just looks awkward and it doesn’t feel right, and it is not comfortable, it was like that kind of thing. Every time I looked at it, it was like ‘urgh’. [Laughing] So, that was kind of the sign that I knew I really needed to do something about it, and I planned to update my website when I was ready to launch my new technique, but it actually kind of happened a little bit earlier.

JC:       Mm okay, so the technique happened earlier, or the website?

HW:      The website happened earlier because I just couldn’t handle it anymore! [Both: laughing] So, I did one of my WorkCation weekends and I just did the whole website and I just kept it live the whole time, I didn’t even do the Sandbox thing; I just, page by page I just re-wrote stuff, changed the graphics and just did the whole thing new, with a fresh new look.

JC:       And how long did that take you?

HW:      Just two days. So, the first day I did all the graphics, so I completely updated the colours, the look and feel, all the visual elements; and then the next day, I just updated all the copy on every page.

JC:       Oh my god, I am so jealous! So, did it…did you plan all of that out beforehand or did it just come out? That sounds ridiculously easy… [laughing]

HW:      Well, that’s the power of the WorkCation weekend! [laughing]. It was just really easy and I think it is because, I didn’t plan anything out; I had an idea of what colours I wanted to use, and I played around with different colour pallets, but I wasn’t 100% sure until I sat down that weekend and did it. And all of a suddent it all flowed really beautifully and it was like this vomiting of visual and writing [laughing] and just information; and it flowed so beautifully and by the…it wasn’t even stressful… and by Sunday afternoon, not even evening, I was done, and ready to move onto other things.

JC:      That stunned silence is me just going: “I love you Holly, but I kind of hate you a little bit right now.” [Both: laughing]

HW:     I was SO ready for it though. I had got to the point where I just couldn’t handle the old website any longer, and it so ridiculous that I say it like this, because it is website! But I couldn’t handle it anymore and I was so ready to make it happen and somehow it just flowed, beautifully!

JC:      Wow! That is the way that I want mine to happen next time for sure! So, I mean, how different is the message would you say? And the visuals? Does it feel like it is a radical departure, or does it feel more like an incremental evolution?

HW:     Yes, it is definitely an evolution. So, I feel like it is just a clearer version of my message. And actually, since I went to this No Limits event in Brussels last weekend, I have updated my website a little bit more, just because I have got even more clarity. So, I just feel that I have, little by little, I have been getting even more clarity on who my ideal client is; how I can help them, what I want to help them with, and kind of just finding the right words to express who I work with and how I help them. So, it was just, kind of a natural evolution as I worked with more people and got clear on what I have wanted to do.

JC:      So, can you describe what, so in your words, where have you moved from; and where are you now, in terms of who are you working with, what was your message and what were your services, compared to where you are now?

HW:     Yeah. So, who I was working with, was women entrepreneurs who were feeling stuck in their business, maybe their prices were too low, or not feeling right; they had fears of visibility, you know the mindset crap that keeps us stuck in business. Still working with those same women but the way I have really honed it down, is that I want to work with women, and I do work with women, who are here to change the world. They recognise the fact that they are part of this change of consciousness that the world is going through, and they are here to do really big things, they have a really big vision, but they feel disconnected from that vision because it is so big and scary and they just feel “who the hell am I to do this thing” but yet they have these dreams, but yet it is not happening. So, the work that I do in terms of upgrading mindset and releasing fears and blocks and stuff, it is all about helping them step up into this bigger vision, this really massive vision that they have; release all the crap that is going to get in the way, and help them more easily take the action that they need to take to make that dream happen.

JC:      So that whole kind of concept of up-levelling; I mean I think it has a number of meanings; but it really feels like you have kind of up-levelled your vision for your business as well, because you are not just helping people (not that there is anything wrong with just helping people build really great businesses and kind of do all of that stuff) but we now talking kind of global consciousness raising. [HW: yeah.] That’s like big stuff!

HW:     It is big stuff and it is scary stuff, but I think that the work that I am doing now with this new technique that I am using to work with clients, that I channelled; like, I think that the fact that I channelled this new technique, helped me step up into a much bigger level myself, because, this isn’t something that I went away and did a workshop and learned how to do, I brought this thing into the world. Before we got on the call we were talking about you know this whole new website and everything being like a birthing process and I really, really felt like that; it was like I birthed this thing into the world and it has been scary. It has been like: “who am I to bring this thing in”, but you know, here we are and I have done it. [laughing]

JC:      Well talk to me about the scaries then.

HW:     The scary was, so it was like a number of things. It was like “who am I to create a new technique and say that this is a great way of changing your beliefs and transforming your mindset and that kind of thing; while at the same time knowing that I didn’t create it, I channelled this thing; like I brought it in from somewhere. And so, there is a lot of fear around that; and there is a lot of fear around, also, using this technique that, again, I put together. It doesn’t have that credibility of EFT, millions of people around the world use it and it has been around for 20 years and it is fantastic. It is like brand new, so it is about stepping up and saying: a) not only did I channel this thing; b) it is brand new and so powerful, and kind of the responsibility of bringing this into the world but in a bigger way, and really putting it out there.

JC:      But isn’t there something there, because I am thinking that sounds kind of cool and amazing because you have the responsibility of kind of birthing it and bringing it forward; but, actually, that whole kind of creation process has come from somewhere else, and therefore it is almost like it is – gifted – to you.

HW:     So, my guides (we are going to get a little woo here) my guides say that I have worked with this technique in another realm, and that I have brought it into this world; so it is not so much that I am putting it together, I am creating it, but I am remembering how to use it because I have worked with it before.

JC:      Okay; so is it worth us, just spending, is your new technique something you can describe to people? You know I have experienced it, so I kind of have secret, hidden insider knowledge about it [HW: laughing]. So, I am just wondering for people who are listening, kind of going: “what is this thing?” is it worth just describing that, and also the process of how you downloaded it?

HW:     Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely; I think those are both really good questions, I think they are both really useful to share. So, the process combines breath work and visualisation and working with the chakras at the same time as you are focussing on your goal or your intention, or what it is that you want to achieve. So, for me, the real power of this technique is that you are not only working at the subconscious level, but you are also working at the energetic level. So, the results that I have been hearing from clients, and the people that I have tried this out with, they have said – they have gotten really fast results and really big results, sometimes within a few hours after the session. So, I am finally understanding that the power of this technique is that it works not only at the subconscious level, but also at the energetic level, and that really helps people to create big shifts fast.

JC:      So, tell people, how you… the process of you kind of…

HW:      Channelling.

JC:      Downloading it, channelling it – that’s the word I was trying to think of.

HW:      [laughing] I used to call it downloading.

JC:      Because I am not kind of from that woo side…

HW:      I know, I know.

JC:      I don’t have the language for it!

HW:      [laughing] This thing how did you get it, where did you get it from? [laughing]

JC:      Can we download it online!?

HW:      I used to say download; and my guides were like “it is not a download, it is a channel, it is flowing through you and out into the world”.

So, that was the biggest challenge in trusting myself and trusting in the process, and trusting that it was going to come through. So, about a year ago in a session with my coach, Lisa Wechenhiser, who channels my guides as she gives me business tips [laughing]. The guides said look: “you need to sit down, make a list, of all the things you like and all the things you don’t like, about how you currently work with clients, because you are going to come up with your own process”. And I was like “okay”, so I did that and that was all very nice, so kind of throughout all of last year, I had it in the back of my mind that I was going to be putting together a new way of working with people. And I knew it was going to come kind of as a download, that it wasn’t going to be something that I sat down and created logically, with my mind, but nothing was really happening, and then it got to the point where, about September of last year, I was ready for it to happen, I wanted it to come in, and so I had another session with Lisa and I was like: “Lisa we need to work on this; where is it?” [laughing]. And the guides were like “it is all ready, in 2 weeks it will be here” and I was like “perfect, that is super clear I am ready”.

And, so, I go away and the guides were like “go out in nature, and go out on walks and that is going to help it come through, it is going to come through on your walks” well, it did not. And, so, two weeks come, two weeks go; and I am like “okay they have missed the deadline” and then another week comes and goes, another week, another week, finally I called Lisa again and said: “I need another session, where the hell is this thing” [laughing]. And well, it was my fault of course, I wasn’t making the time to just sit down and let it come in. I was expecting it to just kind of pop into my head at some point, but I really needed to sit down and allow it to come in. And the thing is, it didn’t come in, in one big chunk, which is I think what made it so challenging. It came in step-by-step, so it was like, I was sitting there, allowing it space and then I felt kind of drawn to put my hands together, and then I felt drawn to visualise a ball of energy in my hands; and then I felt like I had to do some deep breathing and grow the ball of energy. And then, I felt like I had to put the energy in my heart, and so it was like step by step and I kept doing these things, and I was just like “I don’t know why I am doing this; I don’t know what this is”. But, I just did it, I would just think “I have to do this” and so I would do that; and eventually the second step would come in and I would do that. And then afterwards I kind of took notes, and I put the whole thing together, and it evolved over the course of about a week, less than a week; it was like Monday through Friday; the whole thing came in. [JC: wow!] So, it was really, really, fast once I blocked out the time in my calendar and sat down and let it come in. So, it wasn’t something that could have come in as I was going about my daily activity, because the messages weren’t that strong, they were really, really, subtle and I really needed to listen to allow them to pop in.

JC:      Mm I think that is a lesson that we can all take, because I know for any of that, you know whether you want to call it tapping into inner wisdom, whether you want to; whether it is tapping into the universe, or listening to your guides, whatever description works best for you; even for those who are on the less woo side of the continuum; I think that reminder to actually allow yourself space to tap into whatever it is that you need to be hearing on a deeper level; is really, really, important. And I know for the you know type A tightly wound up of us, who are very good at staying in action and staying in motion, actually giving yourself that breathing space to kind of go, even if it just kind of tapping into your inner intuition about “what is it that I actually want?” is so vital. How many of us are using busyness to kind of put off listening to that nagging little message that is kind of going “yep still there, I am not going away, I am not going away, not matter how busy you keep yourself, still here”. That’s really interesting!

HW:      Yeah. It is all about making the time and letting it come through.

JC:      Yeah. Go on, no you go ahead…

HW:      I was going to pivot and start talking about you and start hearing about you; because I am super excited to hear about your process.

So, tell us Jo, how about you, what was the process like for you; because I know you have gone through a really big pivot, and clarity, in how you are working with people and what your message is, so when did that start?

JC:       I think in hindsight, it started kind of towards the end of last year, and then came into, I think a lot of things for me, kind of, a damn broke when Trump was elected. [HW: oh yeah] It was all I could talk about to people; it was just: “how the hell, how the hell, how the hell”. And we had already gone through Brexit which I found immensely distressing, not just because of all the things that it was going to mean for us as a continent in Europe and as a country in the UK; and, obviously, you and I both live in UK. It was what it said about my country, because a lot of the…for those of you who aren’t in the UK, an awful lot, in fact that majority of the discussion leading up to Brexit was around immigration, it wasn’t actually around some of the things that I was interested in discussing about kind of Europe, and stronger ties and how does that mean that we relate to one another across this larger geographical space; it was a lot of stuff around immigration and keeping Muslims out, and keeping Romanians out. And it was, people were having conversations on TV, in popular culture, on our news discussion programmes, in a way that I was quite horrified by, because I thought that we were…I was in my bubble, I was in my little liberal, left-wing, Guardian reading bubble, thinking people didn’t really feel like that. And, obviously, an awful lot of people did.

So that was one thing, and then Trump happened; and I think an awful lot things that have been simmering for me around the online coaching industry, around this kind of selling people a bill of goods, or a handful of magic beans almost you know: “pay me $25,000 and I will give you an instant six figure coaching business” which I know you and I have talked about so many times, but I just can’t bear it any more, I can’t bear it. So, I got up to a point in my business where I think I know that’s not what I am saying, but I don’t think I am saying enough of the alternative and what we need to be talking about. And actually; I didn’t feel like my messaging on my website, was really reflective of the work that I did with people. Because, yes, I helped people get more coaching clients, I helped them to clarify their message, I helped them to do all those kind of strategic business pieces; but I do that with a context of when the kind of resistance comes up, when those kind of personal, that kind of tension around “but I want to be more visible, but I don’t want to be more visible and what’s all that about and I am so frustrated with myself”; and kind of the wrestling and the wrangling that a lot of us women entrepreneurs particularly do. My coaching style has a very clear container to deal with that; I don’t just do the “just do it” kind of business strategy; it is very much incorporating the personal development as well, and I didn’t feel that was being reflected in my message.

And also, I didn’t want to do shallow anymore the word that kept coming back, time and time again, was I want to be having deeper conversations, I want to be having more substantive conversations, because most of the coaches that I worked with, that was what they wanted to do too. They wanted to do deep transformative work, and I felt that the message that I had was kind of skimming along the surface of actually what the work was about. So, that was my kind of starting point, which for me, was very much kind of “no, I don’t want to be doing this way anymore”, and I would be looking at my website and having that same reaction that you are having with yours, that kind of: “urgh it is just not me anymore”. But, one of the things that I found really quite stressful and challenging about the whole process was I knew what I didn’t want, but I didn’t have the clarity about what I did want, so it was several months where I almost felt like I was in this – my friend Lara calls is the “messy middle”. [HW: um hmm] For me, it just felt like I was in no man’s land. I knew where I, I couldn’t go back to where I was doing before but I didn’t know what the new thing was, and how to explain it yet. And, so, I actually found that really quite distressing.

HW:      Hmm it is. I mean for me I knew what the new thing was kind of, but it still felt really icky to be in that transition phase, because it was like: “I can’t really talk about my new thing yet but but I was already moving away from what my old thing was, and I am stuck in this disgusting middle”.

JC:       Yeah; that’s a really good way of describing it. So, during that time I hired a new coach, so there is an amazing woman called Kelly Diels who talks a lot about the “female lifestyle empowerment brand” which even she says it is not the greatest, snappiest title (or fleb for short!); which is a lot of the stuff around the way that some online people, sell particularly to women. And its lots of those things that you will recognise: it is the thin, beautifully dressed, usually white, woman; beautiful, being pictured in a very affluent setting, maybe they have had their photoshoots in Paris, or, you know in Milan, in some beautiful hotel and it is selling aspiration and it is selling, kind of wealth, and it is selling people a bill of goods. Because, a lot of these coaching programmes, you and I both know, Holly, are selling people such a shallow, they are not giving people the actual tools that they need, they are not giving people genuine support, but what they are doing, they are charging an awful lot of money to say, go and have a photo shoot taken in say, Paris, or in wherever. And so what Kelly is really good at doing is she kind of breaks that down and looks at some of the manipulative ways that kind of online courses are sold and things like that. And I already knew that I wasn’t doing most of those things, but I wanted to look at, well are there some things that I am doing. And Kelly describes herself as a “feminist marketing consultant” and I thought “that sounds a bit daring and risqué” because I know I am a feminist but I am not like OTT, overt, with it.

And what Kelly was brilliant at doing was kind of working with me to pull out the threads of the work that I did, and helped me to express that in a cohesive message; and so one of the analogies, I know I have shared on here before [laughing] but it bears repeating is that: working with a coach, one of the great benefits of it is, they help you to see the things that you are too close to see yourself. So, one of the things that Kelly was so brilliant at doing, was showing me where I was already doing some of this work, and what some of the core themes was and we would get into big kind of discussions around stuff, and I realised that one of the things that I really love helping women entrepreneurs with, primarily coaches, but people who have service-based businesses… So, whether you are a coach, or whether you are holistic practitioner, or a consultant, you are selling yourself in a way; you are the business. It is not like you are selling t-shirts or washing power, you are the business and there is this inherent tension when we are required to be visible; because so much of our cultural upbringing is about staying small, not being too opinionated, not taking up too much space, I mean you know, we literally have this diet culture which tells us that we should literally not be being taking up physical space. And Kelly helped me to kind of craft that into my new message which is around, I help people build sustainable, ethical businesses, whilst tackling the tension of what I call ‘feminine conditioning’ head on. Which is that tension that even the most confident, most assertive, most, kind of out there feminist, capable women struggle with, which comes up around when talking about being more visible, stepping up, challenging people’s assumptions, sharing opinions, all those things that you need to do to create a viable, sustainable business.

So that was kind of the other side, but there was a real kind of difficult part in the middle, because I honestly thought that I was burning my business down. I had it in my head that, because I was moving from this position where, I knew my audience seemed to like this, I have regular clients, I have a solid business; if I move to this new thing, which feels like a very radical departure, will people ever hire me again? I honestly felt that way. And so, there were many, many, many [laughing] days where I was just terrified to do it.

HW:       And so, what helped you get over those fears and just put it out there?

JC:        Partly because I knew that I couldn’t go back to what I was doing before, it was almost like once I was in the process, it was like “well the only way out of this messy middle is to carry on through, because I know I can’t go back.” But it took a lot of courage to do, and then the funniest thing was, that once I put it out, all of my existing clients, all of my past clients, all the people who knew me went: “oh my goodness that is so totally you, that’s what you have been doing all along”.

HW:      [laughing] So, they picked up on it, even though you thought you were being super subtle?

JC:       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah! And the response has been fantastic, and as soon as I got it out there, it really felt like an overwhelming kind of wave of affirmation from people just going, you know: “I love this, this is totally you” you have just stepped so much more into you. But it was really nerve wracking in the bit before. And a friend of mine, when I was going through all of this, somebody I was sharing my fears and things, shared a podcast from the being boss podcast, she had a podcast episode and said “you should listen to this” and so I went and listened to this episode and they talk about when you are pivoting, when you are changing your message, and one of the key things that they say on there, which actually I think it is really true now that I can look back on it is, it may feel that your message is doing a total revolution, that you are totally changing, but actually you are probably changing far less than you think you are, than it feels like you are. And that was definitely true of my experience, and now I love my new website, I love my new message [HW: it is beautiful]. It really does feel so much more me and it has that depth that I was craving, and it really does feel like a reflection of the work that I do. But, getting to that point, that’s why I was saying “I am really jealous of your, you know, being able to channel it” for me, it felt very spiky, it wasn’t a nice thing to go through, and yet I am thrilled with the results.

HW:      Mm hmm; I think I got through the spiky bits before I sat down to do the website. I needed it so badly, like I had worked through all the crap [laughing].

JC:       Yeah, yeah; it is really interesting that we both had that experience of kind of the pivot, the evolution and the up-levelling, whatever you want to call it, it didn’t just feel like: “oh, this is the right thing to do now” it was like “I can’t not do this”.

HW:      Yes, yes.

JC:       Yes.

HW:      Exactly, exactly. And I think it might be worth saying to people who have been following us for the last few months, who know that we have been putting together an online programme together, a group programme, that it didn’t work out, we didn’t get the sign-ups that we were hoping for; despite the fact that people thought it was an amazing programme, and they loved it, and they thought it was great. And both of us have had the sensation that that programme didn’t work out, because you and I both needed to separately go through these up-levelling processes. So, I think that it is really important to point out that, if you are struggling with something in your business and something is not working out, maybe it is just not right for you right now and you need to be doing different things.

JC:       Yeah. It was a really interesting, again, quite distressing, experience.

HW:      Yes [laughing]

JC:       But we have done those things it is like “ah” we were disappointed, we put a lot of work into that programme, we thought it was a great programme, I still think it is a great programme. We did genuinely get just the nicest, loveliest feedback on it; but we didn’t get people signing-up for it, and you being slightly more woo, okay a lot more woo than me, you were the one that said: “you know I think the universe needs us to do the thing that we are both putting off doing; I think if we had done this programme, it would be almost be like we are putting off the thing that we would need to do”.

HW:      Yes. Because it is so funny, because about the same time that I stepped into the murky stage and started up-levelling; was about the same time we started planning the programme.

JC:       Yeah me too, yeah.

HW:      So fascinating!

JC:       So, it is like, logically, it is all in place and I still feel that I have a hunch that if we run it again, or when we run again, as we are determined that we will and we will tweak some things, it will be much more aligned. I think it was just like the stars or whatever were out of alignment, and the timing; and it was knowing that we need to go and do these things. Because in some ways it was a comfort doing that programme for me, because it meant that I could put off, the whole kind of new message re-brand, burning my business down kind of thing. [laughing]

HW:      I don’t even think I saw that connection until afterwards when it didn’t work, and I was just like: “what the hell happened here?” [laughing] And I started thinking, I think it is more like an energetic thing than like a practical it wasn’t right thing.

JC:       Yeah; so it has been a really interesting few months. [laughing]

HW:      It has been a rollercoaster! [laughing]

JC:       And I have to say, I don’t know about you, but I am really pleased to be on the other side of it! [laughing]

HW:      Me too, me too, me too! I think this was kind of the roughest up-levelling I have had, and my business has gone through so many different transitions and evolutions, and stuff, over the years, but I feel like this was the biggest one and I think that partly it is because I was so conscious of the fact that I restructured myself into something bigger and new.

JC:       Yeah me too; and I think that whenever you are doing that there is going to be some kind of, there is a resistance there, some part of you that wants to keep you safe, and keep you the same; because, you know, playing a bigger game brings with it more visibility, more risk, less certainty; and so there is almost like a drag effect there, it is almost like aerodynamics or something. Part of you, if you are not fully kind of on board with it, would try to kind of hold you back, tether you to the old thing; so it can feel quite rough when you are going through it. It takes a while when you get to that place where you have lift off. I am using lots of kind of aerodynamical analogies here! [Both: laughing].

But I guess one of the reasons that we wanted to share this, is because you know we are, we think it is really important to be able to share real stories of how these things work, because you know, you may land on Holly’s website, https://www.hollyworton.com; or you may land on my website http://jocasey.com and you may see these beautiful, really together websites and think “ah, it is so easy for them” and it is really not. It is not always easy but it is still worth it, and so if you are in the messy middle right now, or you are feeling like “[sigh] something feels off with my business and I know that that thing that I have been doing isn’t right any more, but I don’t know what the next thing is”. I guess it is rallying cry to have faith in the process and move through it, rather than to give up; because I don’t know about you Holly, but it would have been quite easy for me at one point to kind of go: “that’s it, I am obviously just not cut out for this”.

HW:     Oh, there have been so many points where I could have said that!

JC:      Yeah. So it is kind of almost a, we are sharing this stuff to reassure you in a way, and to say if you are feeling that things are a bit wonky, or like I say you are in that messy middle or you are going through a bit of “I don’t know what the next thing is” that there is something about, you need to give yourself the space, you need to start to dive in and explore some of that, because on the other side, is where you need to be, but it doesn’t always feel great when you are in the middle of it.

HW:      No, it doesn’t. And get help, get a coach, get a business mentor, someone get to help you pick apart this process that you are going through, and help you see what the other side is. And I think also it is important to, don’t let your logical head get in the way, because every time I thought about building my new website I thought: “my old website is not even a year old” it was just like ten or eleven months old. “Like how can I? What am I even thinking about building a new website when the other one is not even a year old.” But it was, it had to be done, so don’t let logic get in the way. If you are ready for a new site, if you are ready for a new message, if you are ready to step up in a bigger way and share your message in a bigger way, you need to do it, whenever that is: even if you just got a new website six months ago.

JC:       Absolutely, yeah, sometimes logic isn’t always the way to go with this, and you know if your guides talking to you (I need to find my guides! I need to spend a bit of time exploring, tapping in, downloading?) [HW: channelling] Maybe that’s a whole other podcast episode, Holly, you can talk me through [laughing] and I can lean into that more intuitive side a bit more, but there is something in there around giving yourself some space sometimes to just explore what’s actually going on for you, and getting out of busy mode so that you can actually hear that little voice inside you that’s kind of going [whispering] “no something is not right, try going that way, go on just keep going”. Whereas I know that I am really good at just “staying in action, staying in action, staying in action” [HW: yep] because then I don’t have to stop and listen to that thing that might tell me something that I don’t want to hear. [Both: laughing]

HW:      Which is: it’s time to change.

JC:       Yes.

HW:      All right, so shall we wrap it up?

JC:       Well, I hope this has been helpful to you, and even if you are not…even if you are really happy with where you are right now, one of the questions that I get asked a lot is: “well, how will I find my thing, the one true message that I am meant to be sharing” and I think that one of the things that Holly and I sign up for, is being really transparent in a lot of this stuff. And I think one of the messages that comes out consistently from us is: there will be no one thing that will last forever. Both Holly and I have gone through several iterations of our business just in the past couple of years, and that will continue. I know that where I am at with my life right now, isn’t where I am going to be in the next 2 to 3 years. I hope it does last a bit longer than a few months! [Both: laughing]. But, you know you have to view your business as if it is organic and allow it to grow and not get so hung up on “finding the one true thing that I need to do be doing now; like chose the message and stick to it”. But allowing it to evolve, would you agree Holly?

HW:      Definitely. Because if you are entering this process where things are evolving and your business is evolving that means that you are growing as well, and that’s great.

JC:       Absolutely, because we want to be growing and evolving as well-rounded humans, and so if you are wanting to have a well-rounded human business, then you need to let your business and your message and your website and your services evolve along with you. And that’s how you develop a really sustainable business; a business that is sustainable in terms of your energy, in terms of your lifeforce, and I think sustainable financially as well. Thank you so much Holly.

HW:      Thank you for sharing your story!

JC:       It was really interesting, I am still a little bit jealous of the weekend of doing the website: it was weeks, it was weeks of tears and chocolate for me! [laughing] But, it also shows that there are different experiences and no one experience is the right one.

HW:      Exactly!

JC:       It is about going at your pace. If you have any questions for Holly and I you know where to get us, it is: [email protected] and its:

HW:      [email protected]

JC:       We will speak to you very soon.

HW:      Thank you for listening and remember to visit hollyworton.com/194 for the show notes on this episode. Thank you.