Today’s Guest

About Jo Casey

Jo Casey is a certified life coach, trainer and coach mentor.  She’s British, slightly nerdy and allergic to the marketing bullsh*t in the coaching industry. Founder of jocasey.com, podcaster, speaker, and writer for Coaching Blueprint, Mind Body Green and Tiny Buddha.

 Things that make me scream with glee: Freshly washed bed linen, watching my husband get all ‘handy’ around the place (DIY I mean), yellow wedge sandals, fabric stores, the sound of my kids giggling, Jesus Christ Superstar the musical.

Spirit Animal: Lesley Knope

Why you should listen to me about coaching: I’ve been training, coaching and mentoring coaches for 14 years and I built my own coaching and training business after a lot of initial trial and error. I’ve been where you are now and I love showing coaches like you how to pull out all of the things that will make your business stand out and attract the right clients to you, without wasting a lot of time on useless and expensive shiny objects.

Listen to this episode

  

What You’ll Learn

• Why there’s a shift going on in certain parts of the online business community
• What’s not working for some people in online marketing
• Why marketing can feel manipulative and sleazy
• Why positioning yourself as an expert can be open to exploitation
• Why certain marketing tactics just don’t feel good to some people
• How we get to the next phase or style of online marketing and what does that look like

Things We Discussed

• Jo’s Facebook group
• Holly’s Facebook group 
• Fabeku Fatunmise
• Kelly Diels and the Female Lifestyle Empowerment Brand 
• Derek Halpern’s Social Triggers 
• Robert B. Cialdini’s book Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion

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Related episodes

• 255: Jo Casey + Holly ~ How to Navigate the New Era of Email Marketing
• 228: Holly Worton ~ How to Be Consistent in Marketing Your Business (And Why It’s So Important)
• BMP218 Stella Orange: How to Experiment With New Ways of Marketing That Don’t Feel Manipulative
• BMP212 Jo + Holly ~ How to Add More Depth to Your Marketing
• BMP179 Holly Worton ~ How to Balance Inner Work & Marketing Your Business
• BMP172 Elizabeth Goddard ~ How to Revolutionize Your Email Marketing With ConvertKit
• R2B124 Beth Grant ~ How to Align Your Marketing With Who You Are
• [SHP 50] How to Plan a Digital Marketing Strategy, with Julia Lera

Transcript

The transcript for this episode can also be downloaded here (no opt-in required). 

Holly:   Hello and welcome to the Business Mindset Podcast, episode 203. This is your host Holly Worton and I am back with another co-hosted episode with Jo Casey.

            Today we are going to talk a little bit about how to find new ways of marketing our businesses online. We’ve been having, kind of, similar conversations with a bunch of people about how disillusioned we are with the old-school marketing techniques. And I have talked about this a little bit lately, but we decided to do an episode on it, because I feel like this is a conversation that we all need to be having more often. If we are unhappy with something, in this case online marketing, and online marketing techniques, then I think the more we talk about it, the easier it will be to find a new way forward.

            So, some of the things that we are going to cover in this episode: first of all, we are going to talk about why there’s a shift going on in certain parts of the online community about certain things not working; and we explore what’s not working for some of us; talk a little bit about why marketing can feel manipulative and sleazy, even though it doesn’t always have to be that way; why positioning yourself as an expert can be open to exploitation, and that doesn’t always work, especially when people are trained to position themselves as an expert, when they really aren’t; and yes, people do that.

We also talk about why certain marketing techniques just don’t feel good to some people, even if they work for other people; and we talk about how to find; how to get to the next phase or style of online marketing and what does that look like? So, we explore some specific examples of people that we think are doing interesting things in the world of online marketing, and some of the different ways that we think things can change and different ways that we can play around and do things.

So, if you have been displeased with the marketing world, and unhappy with some of the stuff that you see people doing, and it seems like everyone is following the same exact formula and you don’t like that formula, then I think you will find today’s episode very interesting. Thanks for tuning in!

 

Jo:       Hi everybody this is Jo Casey. It is lovely to be back! And I am here with Holly Worton, hi Holly!

Holly:   Hello!

Jo:       And today we are going to be talking about something that is inspired by a recent post that Holly wrote in her Facebook group; so, both Holly and I have respective Facebook Groups, mine’s called ‘The Coaches Collective’ and Holly’s is called ‘Business Mindset Alchemists’ – you can find them by putting a search into google or by going to our respective sites. And, Holly had written a post just the other day and it really struck a nerve with people, so I am just going to read it out or read out the beginning bit and then that’s where we are going to take it, so, she says:

              “There is something that I have been talking about with my friends lately, and I know that we need to make this a public conversation, but I am still not sure what form to take. [Jo: Podcast episode! laughing] The thing is we still haven’t reached a conclusion we are still kind of in the brainstorming phase, and I am still not sure what to say, but here’s the thing: I am sick of traditional online marketing methods, yes they work, I am so sick of everyone sounding exactly the same online and I am super-ashamed that I have been guilty of it in the past, because I know that’s how I learned online marketing too, and it works right, so why not do it? But it is getting old, and in face I think all the crap expired long ago and now it is starting to stink and I am sick of it. The question is what can we do instead?”

And she goes on to say what she would like to see, and a really good discussion ensues in her group and we thought this would actually be a great subject; so, Holly, tell me a little bit about what inspired or promoted the post, because I know I’m on board with this, I agree with you, and a lot of other people responded in the same way, so tell me more?

Holly:   Well, it was inspired by the fact that I realised that I have been having this exact same conversation with so many of my friends. I went on a walk with my friend Cathy last weekend, we spent hours talking about it. I was skyping with another friend last week, we were talking about it; like the same conversation keeps coming up, over and over again. And then, I think it was the same day that I posted that, the conversation came up in my master-gut group and , we were talking about it again, and we were like: ‘we have got to talk about this’ and so it was like a… it was all bubbling up inside me, so I just went… it started out as a newsletter, I went to ConvertKit, opened it up, opened an email and just went ‘urggh’ and like vomited everything out [laughing] into an email. And then I sent it to my list, and I was like: ‘okay, well that’s gone’.

And so, then I went back in, copy and pasted it, put it in my Facebook group, and then sat with that for a while and then put it on my Facebook page, and my Facebook profile and then got it out there and started seeing, how many other people feel the same! I got so many comments from people recommending people to look at and people to pay attention to, because that’s the thing, we see so many people doing this old-school online marketing that’s it’s easy to find a million examples of people doing that, but I am really struggling to find a lot of people who are doing something wildly different; and I don’t just mean a new spin on the old stuff but like totally different. Like, at the time I wrote that I could think of one person, and that’s Fabeku Fatunmise, because I think he’s just completely anti all the stuff that I am sick of seeing. So, he’s a great example, but I couldn’t think of anyone else! So, I was asking people for examples and a lot of people put people in there, some of whom I am really not convinced they are doing something different, but some of them are, so yeah that was the inspiration.

Jo:       I think it is really interesting; it does feel like there is a shift going on, within certain parts of the online business community, it seems to be coming from a number of different places, and I think it is always really interesting and always something to watch when the same conversations start happening in numerous different places. I think that’s a real sign that there is something fundamental shifting. And so, I think you are right; but how do we get to the next please then? Talk to me a little bit about what you feel is kind of going wrong with that kind of that online marketing…traditional online marketing – how have you been doing it for the past few years?

Holly:   So, I feel like it is very manipulative; I feel like it is playing with all the psychological stuff, which I think is… it gets results, of course it does, because it has been studied, and it has been crafted to get results; and that’s great if that’s all you want is to make sales. But, I think if what you are wanting is to create a business that really feels good and gives you a deep connection with the people that you are working with, and helps you sign-on the right clients, your ideal clients, rather than just as many people as you can get – I am not sure that those manipulative marketing tactics are what you want. Years ago, I trained in a sales-technique, for sales calls, which was very heart-centred and it worked. I mean when I got people on discovery calls, and I used this, kind of, formula with them, I had pretty much 95% sign up rate. And it was all designed to help the person get clear on whether I am the right person for them, and that kind of thing. So, it was designed with good intentions but it didn’t feel right and I have actually quite using it, because it just doesn’t feel right anymore. Because it is about building up the pain and then giving them the solution; and I just don’t like that, I don’t like tapping into people’s pain and I get that it works because it is getting them to find a solution, but it just doesn’t feel right anymore.

Jo:       I agree. There is a great… actually my coach Kelly Diel, she has written a lot about this, and breaks down a number of the tactics and the techniques that are used in that kind of traditional online marketing space and explains, kind of, why they are manipulative and how they operate on our social triggers. I mean there’s a guy called Derek Halpern who actually has… his business is called ‘social triggers’ and it’s the idea that how we use the unconscious and how we are trained to respond as humans and how you, kind of, deliberately manipulate those things so that people are more likely to buy from you. I think when you are first starting out you kind of go ‘oh ok, that’s how it works and that’s fairly benign.’ But, when you dig into it, actually it’s not that benign, it is kind of sleazy and like you say, manipulative. And so Kelly writes about this thing called ‘the female lifestyle empowerment brand’ and how it works, particularly in brands that are targeted at women online. It is really interesting and we will link to it in the show notes, but it is a really interesting about how things like setting yourself up as an expert or authority, because people are more likely to respond to somebody with authority, even if you are not an expert in it. There is lots of stuff about how you make yourself appear like an expert, even if you are not an expert. I have no problem if somebody who genuinely has done the work, is doing their thing and knows their stuff, but if we are veering into the ideas of ‘if your read seven books on this and you position yourself like this… then people are more likely to buy from you because they will think that you are an expert on it and you just have to position yourself that way. So, it is very open to abuse, I am not saying that the people who originate in it are necessarily coming from nefarious places, but it is very dodgy and it is certainly open to exploitation and abuse I think.

Holly:   Yeah, I agree, I agree. And, I completely agree with what you said about… I don’t think that the people who invented these things had you know negative intentions in mind, but when you read books like the Cialdini book ‘Persuasion’ that’s the same kind of thing, like you are persuading people, that’s manipulation. And it is just…it does not feel good to me.

Jo:       Yeah, I agree. And what is interesting is that book has been used (so the book Influence) has been used so many times by the big marketers, and it is referred to, almost as if it is a bible. And what I didn’t realise is, it was written to kind of expose these, kind of, hidden-triggers that people use and exploit; it was written from really good intentions to make people aware, so that they were less susceptible to it. But actually, it has been taken and used, ‘and here is the…’ it is almost like a 1-2-3 instruction manual as to how to manipulate people. You are right, it doesn’t feel good, it doesn’t do good, and yeah, I think a lot of people are coming to the conclusion that if you are genuinely wanting to come from a heart-centred place, then its incongruent to be using those shady and manipulative tactics and techniques.

Holly:   Yeah, I completely agree, and I think it is interesting that you said about the big influencers and the guru-star profiles, because it is so easy to think, especially if you are new in business, like, they have the solution, they have the blueprint, they have the knowledge, because it worked for them clearly but what worked for them, doesn’t necessarily work for you and I don’t think it is very empowering to be using somebody else’s blueprint or system.

Jo:       No, I know we have referred to this before but when I first started out I hoovered up every piece of information I could find: I paid for courses, I bought the blueprint and it took me a long while to realise, that actually, those blueprints worked for them, because they had a unique set of circumstances, usually because they had a much bigger platform and audience established already. So, you can have the smartest say email funnel in the world, but if you only have 30 people on your list, it is not going to [laughing] convert…it is not going to bring in those numbers. And then there is kind of an ethical issue in there as well about what position do we want to be coming from, what do we believe in terms of letting people have all of the information they need, so that they will make it… I always go back to this idea of: I want people to make a really aligned decision to work with me. If it is a decision that is a no, that is coming from fear, yes, I want to help them through that, to unpick that so that they can get to the place where they know they are making an aligned decision and not just one based from fear of I don’t want to invest this money. So, I am happy kind of on that level, but if it’s: I want people to kind of take a leap into the unknown and to kind of be pressured and that they need to make a decision there and then, then they haven’t got time to reflect on it, they haven’t got time to go away and do a gut check on it; or.., then I personally don’t want someone to be investing in me just because I know how to push their triggers and so have kind of tipped and put my hand on the scale.

Holly:   And I think we have all been on the other side of things as well – I mean I have definitely signed up for things because I got sucked into someone else’s sales pitch, selling from stage into some high-priced thing that I am wanted to believe is going to fix all my problems, even though deep down I knew it wasn’t right for me. But, you know you get a fast action bonus, you get the discount, and you get all this shit that you don’t really need, that triggers you into thinking that ‘well, if I don’t get this now I am going to miss out on the extra stuff’.

Jo:       Yes, exactly, exactly. I know one of the things that Fabeku is just vehement about is early-bird bonuses and fast-acting bonuses, and things like that. And also, when I think about the amount of things that I have signed up for, that are actually crap, but you get into that state of almost ‘and I get all the bonuses as well’. When you are in a calmer, more grounded state, you look at all those bonuses and go ‘I am never going to use them!’ Or actually, they are rubbish…or actually they are just somebody’s freebie that they have thrown in to make a course seem better. And it is because, a lot of the time those things are designed to get you out of that grounded state into a fear state or a scarcity state ‘there are six hours left for you to sign up for this and I will miss out if I don’t do it’ and there are certain things happening with our brain when we are in that kind of a state. And there has been a lot of research into buying behaviours, and what helps people to buy – and not necessarily about: well is that a good thing? Are we kind of manipulating people into buying this thing? I guess the marketers are only focussed on the sale, get the sale, that’s the bottom line, not building a relationship with that person, building a long-term relationship with that customer and doing good in the world.

Holly:   So, the question is, we are all sick of this shit. What can we do instead, because we don’t have enough models of people who are doing the things that we want to do. So, it is so hard to get a vision. So, again, I hate to mention his name again but Fabeku, I love this guy. He talks about fast-acting bonuses and discounted prices, and it’s what he calls ‘price fuckery’ and I love that! That’s like my new favourite business phase, because it is… because it is manipulative. So, he has had: ‘rev-o-rama’ or something – that’s his main way of working one-to-one with people, that’s your entry way of working with him one-to-one. It is $1500 and it has been $1500 for I don’t know how long…

Jo:       Quite a few years…

Holly:   And it is not changing – he is very aligned with that price and he is sold out months in advance, so clearly that works, to be in alignment. What other things can we be doing to build our business, to sign our clients in ways that don’t involve manipulation and price fuckery?

Jo:       For me, I mean you have a great list on the things that you are wanting to see and I would love to go through those, and then I can tell you about some of the things that I’ve been playing about with and have started to see some success with, but also just feel a lot better; and then you can share what’s going on for you. What you were talking about in your post, some of the things that you want to see and you want to hear. So, I wonder if I could just take you though what they were and you could maybe expand a little bit on them?

Holly:   Yes; sure, sure sure.

Jo:       Okay, this is Holly’s post, this is ‘what can we do instead – here’s what I want to see / hear’ and the first one is: ‘Open vulnerability and authenticity but not as a marketing gimmick, I want to hear real stories, by real people’.

Holly:   You know how people often tell like a version of a deep, inspiring story and then it leads into an offer or a sales thing. And it’s like, you read through this whole thing ‘oh my god it’s amazing…oh but it was so perfectly crafted to sell this thing.’ [Laughing] So, I want to see people sharing great stories, connecting with people through sharing their stories, sharing their stuff, sharing the bright, light side of business, sharing the dark side of business, sharing all the stuff, sharing a well-rounded holistic, multi-faceted, multi-viewed aspect of themselves and their business and how they help people so they connect with people. And of course offering their stuff but not that kind of gimmick of leading a story into..that kind of thing. So, I do think that being open, being vulnerable, being authentic is a great way to connect with people and for people get to know you.

Jo:       I agree, and I also think that there is a need – I mean a real need – for people to have models of the reality of what it is like building and running a business and, actually, these kind of perfect presentations that we have of people with their perfect life, and their perfect homes, with their perfect hair, and this presentation of success being easy and quick and overnight, it starts to do a number on people, because we look at those people and we go ‘I am nothing like that, my life is nothing like theirs, therefore, how can I possibly make this work? How can I possibly make improvements in my life or my business, because I know I am never going to be able to attain that stuff.’ It is just like air-brushing in photos, we have started air-brushing our lives online, and I think there is a real danger in that, that it is doing a number on our collective self-esteem, because we are all just feeling like failures, it is no longer that we just feel like we are fat and physically imperfect – because that’s been something that has been part of our collective psyche for a long time now – but it’s like our lives are imperfect. And, rather than that being seen as: ‘well, that’s what being a human is about’ it’s ‘my life isn’t perfect and there is something seriously wrong with that’. And I think that’s where we get into really dangerous and harmful territory. And I do think that there is starting to be a backlash with that, because people are looking at these people with their so-called perfect lives, and kind of going ‘I don’t think that person has anything to teach me because actually, yeah, I struggle with health-conditions, I struggle with the fact that I am not uber-productive all the time, I am not a skinny white woman, I don’t have a beach house, I don’t want a laptop lifestyle and I would just like to be able to put my gifts out into the world and earn some money and be paid and be able to pay my bills. And I want someone who can teach me that’, rather than this whole kind of stood in front of a Ferrari type image. I think there is a big chunk of people just turning off from that now.

Holly:   Yeah, I agree, I agree. Because it is like it is so far out of their vision for themselves they just can’t relate to it.

Jo:       Yeah, yeah, exactly; and I think we are becoming better, or more attuned with our bullshit radar as well. We are better at sniffing it out, because we are way more used to the… I think once you have been bitten a few times by the ‘Oh my God, that’s so amazing, and that’s so…oh… now you are selling to me, okay and’… It feels so gross! It feels like somebody has built up this intimate rapport and then… I can remember this time I was really excited…a friend of mine, or somebody I considered to be a friend, we were having this conversation at this event, I hadn’t seen her in ages, and it was really lovely to see her… and I was asking about her new business, I knew that she had kind of got into health-coaching and fitness, and she looked really great and she was talking about how lovely it was. And she said: ‘oh we are going to be…’ we live about 100-ish miles away from each other… She said: ‘we are going to be up not far from you, me Anne and she mentioned somebody else that I knew from a training programme that we had both done, why don’t we meet up, why don’t you come along?’ And I went: ‘Oh, that would be lovely, that would be amazing!’ And I really naively thought we were going to meet for a coffee, and I turn up to the hotel which hould have been a red flag, and it is a MLM event.

Holly:   Oh my god!

Jo:       And I am ushered into this hall with 300 other people and it’s like the Nuremberg rally and they are talking about their great products and shakes and I felt so stupid. And really kind of: ‘oh, I thought we were friends and you just wanted to sell me your latest shake’ and it was horrible! And, I think that that type of thing, it happens more and more, because that’s how a lot of the MLM companies are teaching people to sel but that’s also happening with online businesses, so it is like… If I am reading on somebody’s Facebook wall a really kind of intimate story when they are sharing something that has happened to them, and I am with them, it is building up that rapport, and then when they do that pivot and it is a link to their latest programme, it is like ‘agh I feel like you have just manipulated my sympathies’, it is like being taken advantage of…and a whole range of icky emotions around that, and it is like…please just stop it people, just stop it.

Holly:   Yeah, but I think there is such value in sharing the first part of that, and then cutting off the manipulation bit.

Jo:       Yeah, absolutely. Build that rapport with me, share those stories, just don’t then hit me with a… ‘And here is a link to my latest programme which will solve this…’ It is really gross! I always try and come from a place of ‘people are doing the best that they can’ and so I like to think that people aren’t doing this as a deliberate manipulation tactic, but that’s how it comes off and that’s what happens.

So, your next thing that you are wanting to see:

‘people having real conversations about all aspects of business, not just the shiny stuff’

So I think that’s similar to what we have been talking about. The last episode that you and I did together was called ‘all about the messy middle, how to thrive in the messy middle’ and I have had so many messages and comments about that episode, about how refreshing it was, how reassuring it was, how appreciated it was…the fact that we shared that it is messy sometimes. And some of that real side of what it is like to build a business.

Holly:   I think people like to hear that, because they are experiencing it but they are not seeing people talking about it, so they think that they are the only ones experiencing it – when we all are.

Jo:       Yeah, exactly. The next thing you are saying you are wanting is:

            ‘people communicating the genuine value of their products and services, not inflating them and then discounting the price’.

Yeah.

Holly:   [Laughing] Price-fuckery.

Jo:       Price-fuckery, yeah – exactly, exactly. It is this false scarcity thing: and it is like if someone has a webinar and they are doing the ‘only 100 places available’ and it is like ‘oh please’. If you are using any of the main webinar platforms, I know you can stream that to as many people within reason, as you want. Stop trying to convince me… it is not like a physical room where there are only so many seats. If it is an ever-green product but you have to have bought on such and such a date then, again, fuck off, because you could actually be selling that at any point. If it is a programme that starts on a certain date, then okay fine, but if you only have so many slots available in your calendar, that is genuine, but all this kind of manipulative scarcity, ‘this will change your life’ type overblowing stuff, please just stop. So, the next one that you are talking about is:

            ‘women stepping up as truly aligned leaders who walk their talk, and share their full story, even the gritty bits.’

Ooh tell me, tell me more about that!

Holly:   [Laughing] Well that’s pretty much the same as the whole thing about communicating all the aspects of business not just the shiny stuff. But, women.. I want to see more women online business leaders, who are talking about the gritty stuff, not just the shiny stuff, not just the success. I want to hear how they got to where they are, people need to hear that story and that’s why that’s pretty much always the first question I always ask on my podcast when I am interviewing someone is ‘how did you start your business, and how did you get to where you are today?’ And: ‘What’s your background, how did this all come about?’ Because we need to hear that startup story.

Jo:       We do! And I still.. I share the story so many times, it still just gives me amazing comfort – Is that Marie Forleo apparently had a job and ran her business as a side-gig, for the first seven years of her business. It gives me so much comfort, especially in the times when I think I have to take the bridge job and your head goes to that place of ‘if I was really good at this, if this what meant to be, I would be able to do this full-time’ and actually: no, it takes time to build an audience and carve out your message, and get l the pieces in place and all of that stuff, so, I think I absolutely 100% agree with you. The more of that stuff that we can share, and I think that one of the things that holds us back, particularly as women, is that fear of judgement if we don’t have it all together. Because I think that one of the things that as women we feel pressure to be under is to present perfect and make it look effortless.

Holly:   Yes, yes, yes…

Jo:       And so, people will…this is a conversation I have with my clients all the time: ‘how real should I be online? If I don’t get the email out to the door every single week on time, you know, then I feel really bad, but the fact is my kid was really sick this week, or my IBS really flared up and I had two days in bed. But actually that’s the reality of it.

Holly:   Yes and people need to hear that so that they can give themselves permission to spend the two days in bed and not feel guilty about it because you are taking care of yourself.

Jo:       Exactly, and we really need to get away from this idea that because we are solo entrepreneurs, because we are our primary resource, that we are a primary resource that we just exploit to depletion. If you think of the old school idea of capitalism and manufacturing you have a certain amount of you know original whether it be iron or coal or something, and if we use that all up until the end, we use every last drop of it. And there is a danger that we bring that mindset into our own business, but you don’t want to be using up every last drop of you. For most of us we come into a business because we don’t want to be exhausted and experiencing burnout which is what lies ahead of us in a traditional workplace. I started my business because I wanted to be able to have more of a balanced lifestyle and yet it is really easy for me to get to the point of: ‘I am exhausted because I am working 12-hour days’ and I have to be really vigilant about that. And part of is about unlearning some of that stuff and being able to say: ‘I have a chronic long-term health condition, I have two kids, I have a normal life and I can’t do 12-hour days. Nor is that viable.’ So I have to find a way of doing it differently. And one of the things that I am really passionate about is helping people build sustainable businesses, by which I mean sustainable economically, you can sustain yourself; feed and clothe yourself and pay your rent, but also sustainable energetically; and I think you would call it soul or go into the woo-side, but the term I use is kind of life-force. That to me is spirit and all of the things that make life rich and good and fill our well. I think we have to have businesses that are sustainable on all levels and we can’t do that unless we are able to take care of ourselves. We can’t fully take care of ourselves if we are thinking ‘I have to be perfect, and I have to be on the go all the time and I can’t take time out and I can’t care for myself properly when I need to be.’ Sorry, that was a bit of a mini-rant there!

Holly:   No! I think it is important, we need to hear that as many times as we need to hear it, until we start taking notice.

Jo:       Yeah, and you say also: ‘unique individuals speaking their unfiltered truth’. Tell me more about that.

Holly:   So, again, thinking of Fabeku, because he is so not mainstream, there is so much of his personality in everything he does, and so much of his passions and his unique stuff and unique opinions. I want to see other people that stand out. I don’t want to see any more of those cookie-cutter women entrepreneurs, who look exactly the same, who sound exactly the same. I just feel that there are so many women out there who don’t stand out from the crowd, because they are all shining equally bright, like shine differently; whine a different colour; let your quirks out online. Let us know what’s different about you, even if it is not pretty different, you know?

Jo:       Mm yeah, Fabeku is a unique character – and I think one of the reasons that he stands out so much is because he is quite fun – he has feather boas, and he is really into his fabulous shoes, and talismans and magic, and tattoos. And huge amounts of love, he is just built from love… he is amazing, but then we all are! And, I feel like my experience of being in business, I know you and I have talked about this before, it is almost like you start to uncover the layers, you take off the layers of protection, you take off the layers of the shiny, that you feel that you should be doing. So, we have talked before about our original websites, and mine had me in a suit jacket, doing that kind of side-on smiling to the camera thing – which I had seen a million other coaches doing – and what is really funny to me, even now I kind of go ‘but I never even used to wear a suit jacket when I worked in an office, what was I thinking?’ It was like I was putting on a costume of what I thought a proper business owner looked like.

Holly:   Yeah. Did you curl your hair too?

Jo:       I had short hair at the time, but yeah….[Both: laughing] exactly. At the moment I am doing this project called ‘a 100 chats’ about feminine conditioning. There is no other purpose to it other than I want to expand my connections with a wider number of people and talk about this thing that I am kind of obsessed about, which is ‘how does our feminine conditioning, how does our experiences as women, actually and as men, because I really want to talk men about it as well – of the messages that we are given when we are born, also as a society as a whole, were are those points of resistances when it comes to building our business, because I know that for me, for many of the women that I talk to, the idea of not being perfect, the idea of being able to share an unpopular opinion, the idea of being loud, and taking up space, and ‘what will people think of me?’ produces this real kind of tension. And a lot of the work that I do with people, is about not just the strategic stuff, but is about ‘how do we unpick that stuff that is keeping you held back?’ And a lot of it is around ‘what will people think of me?’ and ‘I don’t want to upset anyone’ and things like that… And one of the things, that has come up a few times talking to people is the number of people who paid designers to have a website built, and then realised that their website looked exactly the same as every other coaches website. Do you remember there was a time when it seemed like every second coaches website that you looked at was almost like a copy of Marie Forleos? Either it would be the same colours, when she was using.. I can’t remember which colours she was using…but she had the little circles and the face in the circle and all of that. And I remember kind of thinking back to mine and thinking ‘ yeah, mine kind of looked like that as well’, because we were modelling what we thought were the rules, and I think we are now in a time of saying, ‘okay, I think we all need to be pioneers now’.

Holly:   Yes, yes, yes exactly!

Jo:       And say: ‘how do we want this? Let’s design it how we want it, because that old way isn’t working’.

Holly:   Yes!

Jo:       And it is scary exciting to be a pioneer!

Holly:   But that’s what we need to do, is step out of this mould. Like, do what works for you, play, try different things out, see what works for you…experiment.

Jo:       Take a few risks and work through some stuff around…well, not everybody is going to like you, can you handle that? Damn right you can! Of course you can handle that!

Holly:   Yeah, yeah. And you have got to step out..like marmite… really express your true self, so that people can either love you or be rejected by you. I think the new-style marketing that we need is all about connection rather than broadcasting and manipulation.

Jo:       Absolutely. And so, I said I was going to share the direction that I am going in, and what seems to be working for me at the moment, and I call it almost ‘’conversational marketing’. So, what I am doing is I am just very deliberately having way more conversations with way more people, and saying: ‘this is what I am about, these are the issues that I think are the problem, this is the solution that I have kind of come up with, what do you think?….let’s have a chat about it…’ And so I launch my last programme by first of all saying exactly that ‘these are the challenges that I think we have…’ so, the programme is called ‘the super nova collective’. And I kind of had identified with these issues that I was working with lots of my clients, you need strategy, you do need to know what are the steps to build, that I need to do to build my business, so that you are not trying to do everything, so that you can be really clear on what are the steps. But then you also need to be able to deal with the inevitable self-stuff that comes up, otherwise, you would be able to buy the blueprint and implement everything but it is not how it works. So, what is the stuff that is stopping you from doing the implementation stuff, so we have to do that personal work; but then also there’s the things of: it’s really easy to get isolated and stuck in your own head and so, we need to be doing this in community.

            So, that was the thing I set out: I am putting together this programme; these are the three issues that I think we need to be addressing: entrepreneur isolation, overwhelm and knowing what the steps are to take; and, being able to deal with your own resistance as it comes up, so that you can overcome it and you can thrive. And I put out this invite to people ad said: ‘I want to talk to people and I want to get your ideas’ and I spoke to about 20 people, and they all came up with things about, that kind of confirmed a lot of what I was thinking, but also gave me new ideas as well. I then went away and put together the programme, which felt like it was this beautiful co-created thing, went back to those people and said: ‘here’s what we made, here’s the end result’ and then was able to share it with my wider community and say: ‘if this is something that resonates with you let’s have a quick chat’. And so I had these blocks of 15-minute chats, the programme sold out, it was the easiest and most enjoyable, and most authentic and aligned programme launch I have ever done. And so now I just think this is the way forward…is about let’s talk to people. I didn’t have to do any of the: ‘this will help you because…’ It was: what questions have you got? What are you looking for? what are you struggling with? Let me tell you if this will honestly help you, or if something else would be more appropriate.’ And it was lovely, and it just felt so different from the old way.

Holly:   Because it was more collaborative, it wasn’t ‘I know this thing is right for you because I am the guru…’ it is: ‘I have co-created this new thing with other people, who are struggling with the same stuff you are struggling with, might this work for you?’

Jo:       Yeah!

Holly:   It is coming from a very different place…

Jo:       Very different, so, I think that I am going to be doing it going forward! So I am preparing to launch the next round of it, and I am going to do a similar process, so saying: ‘let’s have a chat, let’s talk about whether this is the right thing for you, if that is it that you are wanting?’ And I am also in terms of expanding my audience and my community, it is just all about making more 1:1 connections and so that’s why I am doing this 100 chats, because I want to find out about because I want to find out from people: ‘what do you struggle with?’ And I want to talk to as many people as possible to find that out and then I can go away and see what kind of products or programmes or things I could create to help people with that. So, yeah, it just feels very different energetically.

Holly:   It is, and the way you approach that is really important; so I was just having a chat with a friend yesterday and I am very aware of time – we have gone over time here – but I was just talking to a friend yesterday and she was saying how she hates discovery calls, she doesn’t want to offer them anymore because she hates that whole you know marketing thing of: you get people onto a discovery call, then you sell them onto your thing; but that’s a discovery call is just a conversation with someone but it depends on how you approach that discovery call. You are essentially doing discovery calls, because you are having these conversations with people about exploring their shit, but you came at it from a very different place from the way we have been taught to come at discovery calls. I think it is re-framing our reasons for doing these things, they can work, they can work in a heart-centred way, they don’t have to be, you know, the old style marketing way, you can do the same things but differently.

Jo:       Yeah. If you are coming at it from a place of: actually I feel confident that I have some skills and tools and some knowledge that will help the right people, then you are also not coming from it with that kind of: ‘ah I don’t really want to do this..’ And so you don’t then have to do the overblown thing: ‘I have to oversell it’ when you are coming from an under-power place, that kind of needy place; and you are not coming from an arrogant place either, you are able to kind of come at it from a very equal place: ‘I am presenting what I think is a really great programme, it will help you because of this, this and this, how does that sound?’ And you don’t have to do any hard sell, because if it is not right for them and it is not in alignment it is the right decision for everyone. But I have to say, it has taken a number of years to get to that position of going: I am confident enough in my abilities to be able to not come from that needy place, it is an evolution. It comes from chipping away at it – small steps but doing them every day – stepping out and becoming more and more you, taking off those layers of armour and the costumes that we are wearing and doing the things that we think we should be doing, and asking the pointless questions on Facebook, really? …there seems to be a slew of them on my Facebook wall at the moment but actually just coming up and sharing our stories and making those connections..

Holly:   All about connections.

Jo:       It is! Conversational marketing I am going to trademark it, it’s wonderful, it’s the future.

Holly:   Laughing.

Jo:       Laughing

Holly:   Well, I think that’s a very useful conversation.

Jo:       Yeah, I hope so, I really do. I think we are in the early stages of a new movement within online marketing and that’s exciting and we are all pioneers and that is also exciting and a bit scary, but you know, if we do it together, if we do it collectively, if we do it in community then it’s a lot less scary.

Holly:   It’s exciting.

Jo:       Yeah it is.

Holly:   Thank you!

Jo:       Thank you for listening if you have any questions or anything that you would like to say or comment about this, then please do let us know. You can contact me at [email protected] or [email protected], okay, and you can also find Facebook groups so Holly has the Business Mindset Alchemists group and you can find that link, either just search on Facebook, or go to her site: hollyworton.com; or you can find me which is called the Coaches Collective, again just search it on Facebook or go to my site: Jocasey.com. And we will speak to you soon!

Holly:   Thank you for listening and remember to visit hollyworton.com/203 for the show notes on this episode.