Today’s Guest

About Jo Casey

Jo Casey has over 20 years experience of working as a trainer and consultant in the corporate, public and third sectors. Her flashy clients and workplaces have included Pricewaterhouse Coopers (PWC), The NHS, BT, Toyota Motors, Peugeot Business School, The Welsh Assembly Government, The Girl Guides UK, Vets4Pets/Companion Care, several Local Government Authorities, and The Department Of Work And Pensions. But she’s also worked with many no less wonderful smaller ventures, micro businesses and SMEs.

She’s a self-confessed nerd and has taught at college and university levels and is a visiting lecturer at the University of Chester. Jo has a Masters Degree in Coaching and Organizational Development and she’s an NLP Master Practitioner, MBTI qualified professional certified Emotional Intelligence EQi 2.0 consultant.

She’s been coaching for over 15 years now – clocking up over 1000 hours of coaching experience. Basically, she carefully treads that line between being passionate and a tiny bit obsessive about what she does (obsession often wins). Jo runs accredited coach training programs and coaches people from all over the world via the power of the internet.

Listen to this episode

  

What You’ll Learn

• What are boundaries, and why do we need them?
• The role courage plays when it comes to setting and upholding boundaries
• What types of boundaries you need in terms of managing time and energy
• How to set boundaries to balance work time and personal time
• How to set boundaries for cancellations, refunds, late arrivals, and no shows
• How to get clear on what you will and won’t do in your business
• How to get clear on who you’ll work with and who you won’t
• How to get clear on what you’re willing to debate and what you won’t
• How to set boundaries around pricing (including pay what you want pricing)
• What to give for free and what to charge for
• How to deal with boundary pushers (you know what we mean!)
• The mindset stuff that gets in the way of setting and upholding clear boundaries

Things We Discussed

• Marie TV video: How To Set Boundaries: Be Generous Without Being A Doormat 
• Randi Buckley: Healthy Boundaries for Kind People
• Randi Buckley: Health Boundaries for Business

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• 229: Jo + Holly ~ How to Make Sure You Operate Your Business from a Place of Integrity
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• BMP143 RM Harrison ~ How to Clone Your Favorite Client

Transcript

The transcript for this episode can also be downloaded here (no opt-in required).

Holly:   Hello, hello, this is Holly Worton and I am back with another co-hosted episode with the fabulous Jo Casey. Today we talk about business boundaries, which is such an important topic, and yet I don’t see people talking about it often enough. This is a kind of extended episode, much longer than our usual 30 minutes, and that wasn’t planned; we decided that we had a lot to say, and that there is a lot that needs to be considered when it comes to boundaries. Our last co-hosted episode was on resilience and this one really complements that one, because your boundaries are clear and strong, then it makes it so much easier to be resilient in business.

So, what are we going to talk about? You will learn:

• What are boundaries and why do we need them?
• The role that courage plays when it comes to setting and upholding boundaries.
• What types of boundaries your need in terms of managing time and energy.
• How to set boundaries to balance work time and personal time.
• How to set boundaries for cancellations, refunds, late arrivals and no shows.
• How to get clear on what you will and won’t do in your business.
• How to get clear on who you will work with and who you won’t.
• How to get clear on what you are willing to debate and what you won’t.
• How to set boundaries around pricing, including pay what you want pricing.
• What to give for free and what to charge for.
• How to deal with boundary pressures (you know what we mean by that, we have all had to deal with those at one point or another!).
• The mindset stuff that can get in the way of setting an upward and clear boundary.

I am super-excited about this extended episode. I hope you find it useful and I hope you enjoy it! So that’s all for now.

Jo:       Hi, welcome! This is Jo Casey and I am here with Holly Worton, we are here for our joint monthly podcast episode. And today, we are going to be talking about boundaries; which is one of those, I think it is one of those words that we use a lot in the coaching industry. I think that there is some confusion over what it actually means, but I do know that there is a heck of a lot (I don’t know why I said heck of a lot, feeling quite prudish today!) a hell of a lot of resistance and feelings that come up when it comes to setting boundaries. So, as is often the case, this was inspired by a very animated conversation that Holly and I had when we met up in person the week before last, which is something nice we like to do now and again. So, we are going to talk about boundaries. What they are. What they can do for your business; what some of the difficulties are that we have with them; and all of that good stuff. Why you need to get your head around having good, strong, kind, boundaries in your business if you want to grow it and stay grounded and not ended up working 16 hour days, seven days a week. Does that sound…have I introduced that?

Holly:   I think that is perfect, yeah! {laughing}

Jo:       Okay, so, shall we just explain a little bit how the origin of this conversation came up?

Holly:   Do you know I don’t remember…

Jo:       As I said that I thought: I don’t remember the first time, but I do remember that we had a really animated discussion about it, when we were in London over lunch and then co-working for the afternoon, it was very fun. {Both: laughing}

Holly:   Shall we start fresh?

            Okay, your introduction was really good…shall we just launch into what are boundaries and why you need them?

Jo:       Yeah! How did this conversation come up? I don’t know, neither do I…{laughing}

Holly:   But it was such a great conversation, I don’t know what it was!

Jo:         I wish you were there!

Holly:   {joking}: I wish you were there because maybe you would remember it you know!

Jo:       So, Holly, when you hear the term boundaries, what comes up for you? What is your definition of boundaries?

Holly:   I think, this is a really tough thing to explain; it is like: what I am willing to do, what I am not willing to do, in all the different areas of my business. It is like what’s okay for me, and what’s not okay; and of course, that is going to be totally different for everyone. But, I think a lot of people don’t get clear on their boundaries, and so they have a lot of iciness and murkiness in their business, because they don’t have those clear boundaries and guidelines of what they are willing to do and what they are not willing to do. How would you define boundaries?

Jo:       In a similar way, I think they are almost like the gatekeepers of our time and our behaviour, also around what behaviour and requests on our time and our energy that we are willing to allow. So, I almost think of them as a bit like a gate that you put up; because it can be really easy if you have too loose boundaries to end up just saying yes to everything – I know there is a whole philosophy about that. By the way, if you are just starting out in your business and you are thinking: I will say yes to everything because I have so much time – and I can remember being in that position too – there will then come a point, I promise you, where you cannot fit in everything that you kind of have on your plate, or the requests that you have, and still earn a living and still have a life. So, I think some of it is time based, but I also think some of it is the type of behaviour and type of activities and the type of energy that you kind of allow into your world if you like. Boundaries are really interesting because, I definitely know that in my life, and my business, there are areas where my boundaries could do with tweaking and tightening, but there are also areas where I could do with my boundaries being a bit looser and coming down a bit.

Holly:   Mm interesting!

Jo:       I think it is something about being an introvert and having a belief that I am not very sociable, and it takes a long time to get to know people. Means that sometimes I don’t give people a chance, it takes me a long time to kind of trust people, or ask for help, and things like that. So, boundaries can be…it is a continuum, you can have areas where your boundaries are a bit too strong and areas where they are too loose; which is the area where most of us are operating when it comes to having issues around boundaries, it is probably because our boundaries are a little bit too loose, or just not where we need them to be.

Holly:   And why do you think we need boundaries in business? Is it just an issue of: how much time do I have and how am I willing to spend that time? It is also, as you said, an energy issue: how am I willing to invest my energy?

Jo:       I think boundaries in business, it is our business; and we have certain things that we need to do to generate income; but also, as your business grows and develops, you structure your business in a way that works for you. And that may mean that I only work with certain types of clients; that may mean that I say: this package includes six one-hour sessions, for example. If I then go over that boundary of six one-hour sessions, or I have a client who is emailing me three pages of notes everyday, then that eats into the time and the energy that I have for other things in my business. So, it is really easy to find that you are exhausted by the end of the day, but find that you have got that feeling of: I have got very little to show for it; because I have not been able to get on with things that generate an income, and pay my rent, generate new clients, or just keep me happy and well. We talked on our last episode about resilience.

Holly:   Yeah.

Jo:       In terms of resilience, having really strong boundaries is really important.

Holly:   I completely agree; because otherwise you don’t have the strength and the energy to practice resilience.

Jo:       Yeah, exactly. So, how about you, why do you think boundaries are so important to have in business?

Holly:   Basically, those two things: time and energy. I have limited energy, especially when it comes to interacting with other people. So, last evening, yesterday evening, in my Facebook group, Amber De La Garza – who is a productivity expert – did a video talking about productivity, and that kind of thing, and she said that one of the things that she loves is client calls. She said that working with people really charges her up, so she can do six or seven calls in a day; and I was like: oh my God, three is my maximum! Because I am not like, I love working with my clients, it is absolutely amazing; but we are doing really deep energy work and I can’t handle more than three 90-minute client sessions a day, I can’t handle it. I know because I am burnt out when I try. So that’s my kind of my limit; because I have limited energy reserves, everyone does but I think some people have more or less energy, and some people’s energy is managed differently from others. So, for me, specifically, I am very, very, careful about how I use my energy and how I invest it in the different activities.

Jo:       That’s a really good point. I winced when you said six clients a day!

Holly:   I know!

Jo:       I mean, I can remember when I first came out of coach training, them kind of giving us a sample, you know one of those sheets about: how many sessions could you do each week and how much money could you earn? That’s the point where we all come out and go: oh my God, I am going to make £100,000 in three weeks, you know, and it doesn’t quite happen. It was set up like you would do a call at 09:00; then have a ten-minute break; and then a call at 10:15; it was like eight calls a day! I was like: no, I can’t. My absolute maximum is four calls in a day. I know that if I do that then I will be, you know, really tired; and I do find them energising in one way, but it is also very draining.

Holly:   Yeah, and I also have my calendar set up so that I have half-an-hour between calls, no matter what the call is. Whether it is a discovery call, whether it is a client call; I do not have less than half-an-hour between calls, because I need that time to kind of wind down from the previous call and get ready for the next call.

Jo:       That’s a really good idea. That reminds me of the time that you told me: Jo, why don’t you just block out an hour for lunch each day on your calendar? And I was like: that had never occurred to me! I think it was one of those days where I had just gone: somehow, I have just done three calls this morning and I didn’t have time for lunch. I think we were meeting in the afternoon and I was eating my sandwiches and it was 4 o’clock in the afternoon or something. So, that’s a boundary.

Holly:   Yeah it is.

Jo:       I will not work during these hours… And, again, I am aware if you are early in your business, you are thinking: I will work whatever hours available… Because that was how I was initially: I will have every evening free just in case a client wants to come; but, if you want to have a family life and a healthy equilibrium and resilience and all of that; and be able to show up well for your clients, then you need to put some limits and some boundaries around your time.

Holly:   I think it was interesting what you say, when you start out you want to be available to everyone at all times.   And maybe that’s worth giving it a try at the beginning, to see what are your best times for working; because some people are more focussed in the morning; some people are more focussed in the evening, or afternoon. That might be worth having really loose boundaries in the beginning, just so you can see what works for you, and what doesn’t, because sometimes you have got to figure out these boundaries through trial and error.

Jo:       Oh, absolutely, yeah. I think boundaries are, fluid is the wrong word, they develop, and they evolve. You don’t want fluid boundaries {laughing} you want solid boundaries!

Holly:   {laughing} But open to change!

Jo:       Yes, yes, definitely. And also, you can go into a relationship thinking: ok yeah, these boundaries work. And it is only as the relationship develops that you kind of think: no, I need to be putting some firm things in place. So, for example, I sell a package to a client, and it is x number of sessions; initially, I had said to my clients that you would have unlimited email between sessions. And I had to change that when I did get somebody who was sending me three pages of notes, pretty much everyday. And then, they were in a different timezone to me as well, and then if I didn’t respond, within a certain number of hours, usually when I was asleep, they would send me another one: did you get my last email? Just energetically, I would be waking up and be like: oh my god there is another email. So, I had to go back and renegotiate those boundaries, and now I have it in my contract that you get one email exchange between client sessions; because we tend to have client sessions every two weeks, happy to have one email exchange in-between that, but any more than that, I just don’t have the time for, I don’t have the bandwidth for, and so there is a boundary on that. But it was only after having that experience that I…

Holly:   Knew that?

Jo:       Exactly, exactly.

Holly:   And I think that’s a very important thing, it is trial and error, you are going to have some crappy experiences in the beginning, because you are finding out what your boundaries are that are right for you. So, there are going to be some times where you are like: oh God that’s awful! Great! Make use of that by creating a new boundary so that doesn’t happen again.

Jo:       Yeah; exactly. So, have you got any times when you have had to…increase a boundary, or strengthen a boundary? In your business?

Holly:   I’m sure there have… in terms of clients I tend to attract clients that are not very clingy or need a lot of handholding which is good; because I am not a handholding kind of person. So, I think I have been really really lucky in that respect. I have people, this is weird to say this, but people have on various occasions praised me for my clear boundaries! {laughing}

Jo:       That’s good!

Holly:   So, I think perhaps, I do set up boundaries and make them clear without realising it? I don’t know. When you book into my Acuity calendar you get this whole thing talking about, basically, boundaries. And yeah, so I think I am really clear upfront because the times when I have chosen to, like someone has cancelled at the last minute or something, because they’ve had something come up, and I have said: look, if you are not in a good headspace let’s not do this call right now, let’s rebook. And they have been really pleasantly surprised because they know that my boundaries are super-clear, and they are doing something that is not in the rules, but I have chosen to say: look, you know, you are not in the right space to do this call right now, let’s do it when you can do it. So, yeah, I think I have really clear boundaries, and I think that’s partly because in my first business there were no boundaries, I mean it was awful. So, I was just working all kinds of hours, crazy hours, and I had a lot of pressure from my business partner to, as you said, respond to emails very quickly. So, I think that is partly what made me so good about setting boundaries, and really clear boundaries, and upholding the boundaries in this business, because, I have already lived my boundary lesson in my first business.

Jo:       That’s really interesting, yes…. just the way that we seem to have to learn these things the hard way.

Holly:   Yes, that’s how it is; that’s how it is. So, we have talked a lot about client calls, emails and that kind of thing. So, let’s talk about different types of boundaries, so that people know what things they need to get clear on. So, one of the things is timing. So, you know, finishing client calls on time, not going overtime, or are you going to? When are you going to do client calls? How many in a day? What kinds of emails are you going to allow in-between lessons? What’s your timeframe for answering emails and general work stuff. So, in terms of timing, what other kinds of boundaries do you think people need to be setting up?

Jo:       So, I am trying to think of my coaching agreement; so, I have stuff in there around: it is their responsibility to call me; show up on time; if you don’t show up on time we are still going to finish at the same time; I will reschedule an appointment once, with 24 hours notice, if not, you lose the session. There is stuff around, then this is another one that I learned the hard way, I don’t know if I mentioned this in my podcast, one of my first paying clients, he was paying me a pittance, £30 for six sessions or something, he turned up for his first coaching session and he was driving in his car. He was talking really fast and I was thinking: oh, I don’t know quite how to handle this.

Holly:   {laughing}

Jo:       And, I did after a few minutes gather my courage and say: we need to do this call when you are able to fully focus on it, not when you are driving because we don’t want to be interrupted; so, I don’t know if you want to put the car over… And he was like: no, no, I need to get to a meeting, I need to get to a meeting. And then we had another exchange, I think it might have been the last session, or it might have been via email, I can’t remember it is a long time ago now; he basically admitted to the fact that he had had a few cheeky lines of cocaine before the call!

Holly:   Oh!

Jo:       That had never occurred to me in a million years…

Holly:   Of course not!

Jo:       That somebody would do that so…

Holly:   {joking} That’s a great way to turn up to your coaching session, really focussed and energised, and ready to go, don’t you think!?

Jo:       {joking} I guess so! So, whilst I don’t {laughing} explicitly say: please do not be high, or on drugs…

Holly:   {laughing} Please abstain from…

Jo:       But I do say, please make sure that you are in position where you can focus fully on the call without interruptions.

Holly:   It is also dangerous, even if you are not high on cocaine, if you are driving while having a coaching call; how are you focussing on driving!

Jo:       Exactly exactly. The thing I wanted to mention around that is, when I said, I screwed up all my courage and said to him [he needed to pull over]. Because, I do think that for a lot of us, there is an element of courage needed when we are first setting our boundaries; because we are not socialised to have good boundaries. We are socialised (our audience is predominately women), but we are socialised to be amenable, to be helpful, to be compassionate, and so the pushback that we get internally is: what will people think of me if I say no. And this comes up time and time again; and it comes up for me sometimes too. What’s stopping me from saying: this isn’t acceptable; or: no, this doesn’t work for me; is that fear of: will people like me? Will I get called the b word? I think that is something that is worth unpacking in yourself around that…Brene Brown has this great phrase that she says: You have a choice and I choose the moment of discomfort, which is the discomfort of setting that boundary and saying to someone: no, that doesn’t work for me and no I can’t do that; as opposed to: hours, weeks, a lifetime of resentment and exhaustion, because you don’t have the boundaries. So, it around, thinking about: what works for me and my business. And, going into it knowing: these are my business boundaries, these boundaries help me to be able to show up in the best possible way for my client. And without those boundaries you will very, very quickly burn out. If you go over your allotted time on a call, because the client keeps on talking, and you feel a bit bad, you don’t want to stop them mid-flow and draw it to a close, and it goes 15 minutes over, and that runs into your next call, and you end up showing late for your next call. Or, you have not had sufficient break to recharge, to go to the bathroom, to get a cup of tea; then that is going to have a knock-on effect on your ability to deliver for your client. So, actually having good boundaries is kind.

Holly:   Yes, it is, it is. And it gives people a clear idea of what you expect as the coach, and what is expected of them. It just makes everything clear and puts it out in the open where they can see it.

Jo:       There is a real safety there, when you know what the boundaries are, you know what the rules are; one of the theories around kids, and what makes kids very anxious, is parents that don’t have clear boundaries and expectations that are communicated to the kid. And I think as adults that applies the same. Things like: pay what you want or pay from the heart prices…

Holly:   I hate that!

Jo:       I don’t even remember but I think the first group program I did pay what you want; but I put some parameters in there.

Holly:   I think if you do pay what you want, but you have some parameters like: this is worth this, some people might choose to pay between this and this rate. Some kind of guidance, then it works. But, if it is: pay whatever the hell you want people are going to be like: I don’t even know. And there have been times where I haven’t bought someone’s thing, because I am so pissed off by their pay what you want prices; I don’t want to be seen as cheap, but I don’t know how much they think this thing is valued at.

Jo:       You also don’t want to be the fool who paid three times whatever anyone else paid…

Holly:   Yeah!

Jo:       So, strong boundaries and clear boundaries are really kind. So, let’s talk about free versus paid; because you were sharing a story about something on a Facebook group recently, it was really interesting, and really valuable, especially for a lot of us, as we try to navigate this whole: what will people think of me. And you know…because I think in our audiences, most people are healers and they do have a gift that they want to be giving to people, we don’t want to be the money grabbing, just out to exploit people. But, at the same time, it can sometimes be tricky to know where the lines are with that.

Holly:   And the reality is we are living in a real world, where things do cost money. So, this is a really interesting story, and I am not going to name names because this was in a closed Facebook group; but a woman I know who is an author and wrote a book and has a Facebook group dedicated to that book, to kind of work through and discuss the themes from the book, mentioned that she was launching a new program, which is coming out next year. It was reasonably priced – it was a considerable investment, but it was reasonably priced, considering that was a year long program – and someone complained in the group and said, you know:

            “I am really sick of these authors who write their book and they use their platform to sell stuff and make money; and I am sick of this and I see it time and time again, I am leaving…” And she left the group.

So, the following day, the author in question comes in and she says:

“Look I am really sorry that I couldn’t have a dialogue with this woman, because she left the group; but you know way back when, you could do an exchange with people and say I am going to give you some healing and then you will give me some carrots from your garden, that’s really lovely; but in this day and age, I can’t pay for my mortgage, my rent, my whatever, with carrots. Money is the exchange that our society has agreed on so that’s what we need to make, so I need to charge money for my services, because it involves a significant investment of my time; all the work that I have been doing my entire life has lead up to this thing that I am teaching now.”

            And then a new person in the group started complaining and saying:

“I am really sick that all this stuff is aimed at women who are middle class and up and people who can’t afford it don’t have any help.”

And then someone else said:

“Look, this free group is what’s for you, you are getting help and support and community here, this is the free thing that is for you.   The expensive stuff, the higher priced stuff is for people who can pay that, but you have a thing, it is this thing which is free.”

And a lot of people don’t get that, a lot of people…I don’t know if it is because we have so much free information online now, that people expect everything to be free.

Jo:       I do think… the whole thing online for a long, long time was: give away your best stuff for free, and I think that whilst I am big believer in, I love to provide free stuff, if we are not clear about that it becomes a bit fuzzy for people, and you can suddenly get this: I am being brought up short for being asked to pay money for this.

Holly:   Yeah, it trains people to think that your stuff is free…

Jo:       And so, I always appreciate it when people are really super-clear about what this is and what it isn’t. So, for example, I do free coffee chats, but they are just: you will meet me, we will have a cup of tea, or a cup of coffee, in our respective offices and we will have a chat. I won’t give you business advice necessarily…it is a chance for me to get to know you. The purpose is to build a relationship with you. Sometimes I do, and maybe that will lead to us to collaborate, or becoming clients, but I am really clear about that: I do not sell on those calls.

            But then there are others where if you sign up for an intake call with me, the expectation is: this is a call, and again I am deliberate with that, this is a call for you to find out more, about whether I am the right person to help you; with a view to us potentially working together. It is very explicit about what it is for.

What frustrates me sometimes, and what has freaked me out in the past, is when people are offering free calls and you are not too sure what it is: is this genuinely a free call or…? So, I like to be really clear. I have had times when people haven’t respected that boundary. I don’t know if I told you this but I once, in the same week, not sure if I told you about this, I had three people who were working with the same coach, who signed up for intake calls with me. And the same thing happened, and I didn’t know that they all worked with the same coach until the third person, and I was like: oh, you work with this person too! And they all ended the call in the same way: thank you so much that has been so interesting, I won’t waste anymore of your time. And this was before we have even got to the point of: what do you think, let’s have a discussion? They hung up and it was the same line that they used.

Holly:   Weird, I wonder if that was something that coach was telling people to sign up for people’s discovery calls, so they could learn how people do it?

Jo:       Well, I was talking to my coach at that time and she said: that is a tactic that some people teach, it is that just thing to sign up; and I felt furious and violated. It was like: that’s my time!

Holly:   I know! Okay, but what’s the purpose of just signing up for intake calls?

Jo:       I don’t know I presume to see how other people do it. I have also had people sign up for a free call with me and no pressure, no sale, no anything. And I am: okay I do want to sign up and find out a bit more about you and all of that; and then it is so pressure all the time; and again, it felt like a violation. So, having clear boundaries, and clearly laying it out; everybody has the expectation and the safety there, that’s how you develop trust.

Holly:   Yes, yes! I completely agree, so I do the same thing as you, I have discovery calls, intake calls – but I think I am needing to rename them – and then I have the up tea or coffee on Skype. And when I advertise the cup of tea and coffee, I clearly say: this is not a sales call, this is just a conversation on Skype and I am very, very clear about that. So, yeah, I think that is really important because people know what to expect. So, in terms of boundaries I feel like there are a few more things that I want us to cover: so work time vs. life time, what is your work schedule going to be, what hours of the day and what days of the week are you going to work, and when are you going to cut that off, so that you can live your life and have your personal time?

Jo:       Again, it is one of those things, when you are just starting out, and you are looking at your calendar and it is just empty, and you think: my god, I will keep it open forever. And I did that and I got to the point where I was working five evenings a week, because I am in the UK, I would say that probably about two-thirds of my clients are in North America, or Canada.

Holly:   Oh, are they, okay.

Jo:       So, having evening slots available is really useful for them because I don’t have to get up at 5/6 o’clock in the morning, depending on where in the country they were, but it meant that I just wasn’t seeing my husband, or my kids, and I was exhausted. And then I would be starting calls with my UK clients at 9.30am the next day…There were some nights where I wasn’t finishing until 10pm and then I would have a call the next day, at 9.30am. It was crazy making!

Holly:   It feels like you are never turning off.

Jo:       Yeah, exactly, and so, had to put some boundaries in around that, so now I work three evenings a week. And I don’t do calls before 10am, I only do a certain number of calls each week, and that’s the beauty of having an online scheduler; you can set your hours and your parameters in there.

Holly:   Yes, it’s a really clear way to set your boundaries. Now the times I have had a client in a wildly different time zone, I had one client in Hawaii, which is crazy between Hawaii and the UK; I would send the link to my calendar and say if you can’t find anything let me know, because you are probably not going to be able to find anything {laughing}. And she is very, very grateful for me working weird hours outside of my schedule, because I love working with her and I love to accommodate her, but that is not something that I make a habit of, it is only for special instances.

            What about cancellations and refunds? That’s another thing that we really need to have boundaries on.

Jo:       Yes. Generally, as a rule, I have a no refund policy.

Holly:   Yep me too.

Jo:       I say: as a rule, because, you know, if something…life happens, and I am not a monster, and I am someone who has deep empathy, so if someone is going through some real heavy stuff, then I am open to a discussion around it. Similarly, with rescheduling, you know, if someone is going through some real heavy stuff then obviously I will do what I can to accommodate that. If somebody is repeatedly cancelling then, no, because that’s my time.

Holly:   Exactly. Yeah, and I wouldn’t, I probably…if I had a client who was repeatedly late, or cancelling, I would not renew a contract with them or work with them in the future, because that’s just too stressful.

Jo:       There is something about, I have it in my coaching agreement, and I have a bit of a behavioural contracting conversation with people when I first start working with them, around roles and responsibilities around what I promise, and what I expect from them; and what I will and what I won’t do. So, one of the things, I have a boundary around, I won’t chase my clients. It is up to them to book the session, it is up to them to show up, it is up to them to raise any issues that they have with the coaching, because if you get to the end of the coaching session, we have talked about guarantees, and why I don’t offer a guarantee, because if you feel at some point that the coaching isn’t going the way that you want it to, you are not getting the support, then my approach is, as far as I’m concerned this is an adult to adult relationship.

Holly:   Yes, I do not treat my clients like children.

Jo:       No exactly. So, I won’t chase you, I won’t be constantly checking in and asking how you are. I go with the assumption that you are a competent, whole, adult, as in: I’m okay, you’re okay, adult and that you will raise issues with me appropriately and then of course then I will be flexible, I say that in my contract term: if something is not working for you, raise it with me, and I will be as accommodating as I can to, in discussion, come up with a solution that’s going to work. Don’t wait until the end of the six months of the coaching to then say: that didn’t work for me.

Holly:   Yes, yes exactly {laughing} because what can you do now?

Jo:       That’s only ever happened once, where somebody has said: I’m not happy I want a refund and hat was my response, because that’s no way to run a business.

Holly:   Yeah. So, what about people who are late for calls, how long do you wait for people?

Jo:       Generally, five to ten minutes, I mean we are always, stuff happens, if somebody messages me and says: I am stuck in traffic, or… I was five minutes late to our call today, because I had a phone call from my son’s college, and I thought oh goodness what might this be, and it turned out that it was something and nothing, but you know…five minutes, no problem.

Holly:   Exactly.

Jo:       If I am sat at my desk, and I am getting on with some stuff, then I will maybe do it a little bit longer. I generally will email somebody or message somebody and say: hey we are due to have a call, is everything okay? But yeah, after fifteen minutes, because also the way that I work there is not that much that we could get done in a shorter session, so yeah.

Holly:   So, I have a fifteen minute maximum limit, except for discovery calls or intake calls, or short calls, where I wait ten minutes. And I will message a person and be like: hey are you still okay for our call now? If I don’t hear from them at the fifteen minutes, or ten minute point, depending on what kind of call it is, I will just message them again and say: hey, I hope that everything is okay with you, I am getting offline now, and then I get off Skype. Because I need to get on with things, and I can’t actually get anything else done, if I am half waiting for a call. You know, I need to refocus my brain on something else and I can’t do that if I am in two places at once.

Jo:       Yeah, that’s true, that’s true.

Holly:   So, what about how to know, what are your boundaries around who you will work with and who you won’t work with?

Jo:       Again, I think this is something you develop the confidence for about whether somebody is going to be a good fit. And again {laughing}, it is another one of those things that we all tend to learn the hard way.

Holly:   Exactly, it is trial and error.

Jo:       Yeah, so you have the couple of clients where you just go: oh my god, they were such hard work! And, when you think I knew right at the beginning I knew this wasn’t going to work sort of thing. And, yeah, that develops over time, but I also guess that I am at the point in my business now when I know I don’t have to work with everybody, so I am quite happy to say to somebody either: I don’t think I’m the right person for you, I don’t think that you are at the right stage in your business, but come back when you have done this, this and this; or I will refer somebody. Or, there have been occasions where I have said: I am not sure if I am the right person, let’s have a chat.

Holly:     Yeah, yeah.

Jo:       I need to find out a little bit more… I do occasionally do work that isn’t, I am working with somebody at the moment, and it is more of a career coaching issue, this person isn’t a coach, they couldn’t be more different from a coach. But they contacted me, they were already familiar with my work and we had a chat and I thought: do you know let’s give this a go, let’s try it. I think the boundary for me is: how long has somebody been in business? Are our boundaries aligned? Do I think they are ready to actually do the work? And there are a number of things that goes into the decision and I know that when I am talking to people who are just starting out their business and I explain that a discovery call is a two-way thing; and they are like: yeah, yeah, how do I get them to say yes? And you are like: no, that’s not what you wanted, because you will have those situations where they say yes, and you have not even thought about whether you are a good fit and they turn out to be really really difficult to work with. You learn the hard way.

Holly:   So, speaking of difficult people, what about boundary pushers? Because some people will naturally respect your boundaries and some people will kind of push back and see if they can get what they want anyway.

Jo:       Yeah, I have to say, this is something that I have to lean into. Because I struggle with that, because I am like: um I don’t quite know what to do. My two mastermind buddies, who I mentioned before, we meet once a week, we speak daily a lot of the time, and one of them is excellent at boundaries, like exquisite at it. Has formerly trained in doing boundary work, so she is really great for sometimes giving me the wording, or: you need to put a boundary in here. It is something that I am learning to do better with. (I probably shouldn’t be saying this publicly!)

Holly:   {laughing} Push my boundaries, give me a chance to learn some more!

Jo:       But the way that I now view it, is that each time it happens it is an opportunity for me to grow some more.

Holly:   Yes.

Jo:       Again, people out there maybe thinking: oh, I am going to give Jo an opportunity to grow here! Please don’t do that! Because it helps you to redefine or to initially define, what are my boundaries around this? So, if somebody says: I can’t do an evening, will you do a Sunday call, I am like: will I? No, I won’t. Or: will you come and do this speaking event, there is no money, the people in the audience aren’t remotely your ideal clients… So, I had an event, an instance late last year, where somebody had contacted me and, it was somebody local, and they did the whole: it is based on generosity, it would be so good if you would do this, we would be so grateful. And I was like: yeah, but this is going to take almost like a whole day for me to do, and I must have had seven or eight emails off this person. And, at first, I was kind of negotiating with them going: well, you know, maybe I could come along for an hour. Then it was: will you promote the event. And eventually I was thinking: I am getting nothing out of this, it is going to take a whole day. It took a while for me to actually go back and say: no, I can’t do it. Again, you learn from it. How about you, I imagine you are a lot better at this than I am?

Holly:   Yeah, I think…

Jo:       Of course, I am! {laughing}

Holly:   Sorry, sorry… My boundaries were so bad in my first business that I think they are so good in this business {laughing}. Generally speaking when I am clear with my boundaries I don’t have problems with boundary pushers. I have had, I am just thinking of a time when, I have had two refund requests in my entire business, so one was from an online course, my very first online course that I did was a social media course, it was this guy who signed up, I emailed him every week about the class, he never showed up for any of the calls, never showed up for the Facebook group, never showed up for anything. And I had a 30-day money back guarantee, never heard from him, I kept emailing him saying: are you okay, are you getting this? Nothing. Six months later from the same email that I had been emailing him, he writes and says: I am doing my taxes and I am looking at my receipts and payments and things, and I see that I paid for this course which I never took, I want my money back. And I was like: no, it was a 30-day money back guarantee, I contacted you so many times (I don’t remember how long the course was), it was an eight-week course, plus I had bonus weeks, that guy got at least fifteen emails from me saying: this is the course stuff. So, I really don’t no… And the other time was for a package – and I am not happy with how I handled this – this woman signed up for my three-session package, after the first session came back a few days later and asked for a refund, because it wasn’t what she expected, which was really odd considering the fact that she did the same technique that I was using at the time. So, it was like: what were you expecting? I should have just picked up the phone and had a chat with her, but instead I tried to do it over email because I was kind of freaking out about it. I ended up giving her a full refund and not feeling good about it. So, yeah, that was kind of my two boundary pushers. Not that big a deal.

Jo:       So, in terms of boundary pushers what about the people who just want to pick your brain?

Holly:   I don’t get that!

Jo:       Really?

Holly:   Yeah, no one wants to pick my brain! {laughing}

Jo:       Pick Holly’s brain! She has a great brain! {laughing}

Holly:   Yeah, I don’t… That’s so interesting because I see people complaining about that all the time, I don’t know whether my boundaries are so clear that people are terrified to contact me, or they don’t give a shit about my brain and what it has to offer {laughing}. But I don’t get that kind of boundary pusher. Every once in a while, I get people emailing with a question and it is something that I can answer quickly and be hey: this, this and that, but I don’t really have that problem.

Jo:       That’s really interesting. I don’t get it that often. I will sometimes get emails from people. Sometimes people will message me on Facebook and things. Basically, it depends on the relationship that I have with them, if they are genuinely a friend, and it is a two-way relationship that I have with them, I am usually quite happy to give them a bit of advice and stuff like that. But if it is somebody I don’t have that relationship with though, what I have become a lot better at is: this is a great question, here is a link to my Facebook group and I may well do a Facebook live or a blog post around it. Similarly, with people who email me about stuff. Apart from the ones that are really off the wall, like: I have no idea where you would buy that the microphone that you need for the…you know. Sometimes I get a couple of bizarre ones, but I have got a lot better at it. I know that Marie Forleo did a really good Marie TV video around how to handle boundary pushers that maybe we can link to in the show notes?

Holly:   Yeah, we will definitely. Okay, so I know this is getting really, really long, but I feel like this is really important stuff for us to be saying, like the conversation for us to be having. Two last things, one is: what you are willing to debate, and what you are not willing to debate? And I think this is a really important one that I think a lot of people don’t think about. So, when we were chatting about this before we got on the recording, one of the things that I said was that I had this YouTube video, it has got 61,000 views now, so it is obviously getting out there to a much wider audience than people who normally know me and it is about how to do self muscle testing. So, in the beginning (you know this is YouTube) I got a bunch of comments saying this is bullshit, or whatever, and I added to (and I have added and added to the description of the video over the years, it is two years since I did this video), and one of the things I say is: I am not willing to debate whether or not this is a valid thing. If it works for you, great; if you think it is BS, great; I am not going to debate this with you. And since then, I haven’t had people popping in saying this is all a bunch of crap. So, I don’t know if because the energy is out there that I am not going to debate, or if people are just reading the description, which I doubt. But, maybe it is something about how I am putting myself out there now, saying: if this works for you: great; if it doesn’t I am not going to debate this with you.

Jo:       Yeah, yeah.

Holly:   So, what about you?

Jo:       Again, for me this was, this has been a learning curve and something I have got a lot better at over the years, but the phrase: no is a complete sentence, kind of blew my mind when I first heard it. Because I think that one of the ways that boundary pushers operate, and some people are doing it quite innocently, and some people are doing it quite deliberately, there is a way when persuasion goes to intimidation and manipulation and that happens in business, that happens outside of business. Just looking at the whole Harvey Weinstein thing coming up, a person who refused to take no, and knew how to badger and break people down. I think that there is a, because of our conditioning (I talk about feminine conditioning a lot) but I think because a lot of our conditioning as women tends to be around looking after other people’s feelings, that there is a tendency to want to debate, or to explain, or mollify, or to allow somebody to feel that they have been heard, and are important to us. And actually, that can take a huge amount of energy.

Holly:   Yeah, yeah.

Jo:       So, yeah, there are some things that I am not willing to debate, I am not willing to debate feminism. Occasionally I will get somebody who will, you know: oh, so you are a feminist… And I tune out, because I am not willing to discuss it, because my definition of feminism may well be different to yours. I don’t care! Go and read a book on it, that is not my fight to have.

Holly:   And there is not one definition that works for the entire world, either, so figure out what yours is and deal with it.

Jo:       Exactly, it is not my job to educate you, it is not my job to debate with you. I think that is something that my boundaries have got much better around. And I think it is almost like survival skills 101 for operating on the Internet. {laughing} Do not fall down the rabbit hole of debating stuff with people.

Holly:   Yeah, yeah. It is just a waste of time. So, to wrap this up, you touched a little bit on this at the start; but what are some of the mindset stuff that gets in the way of setting clear boundaries and upholding clear boundaries?

Jo:       I think one of the things is consciously, fully being aware, of the fact that we have a right to set boundaries; we have a right to them. Not just that they are a good thing to do. We have a right to say no, we have a right to… we are running our own businesses, so nobody is telling us what to do.

Holly:   Yeah.

Jo:       You don’t have a boss – literally no-one is the boss of you! So, you have a right to set the boundaries that work for you, you have a right to not take responsibility for other people’s feelings, we are responsible for our own reactions, and I think that those two things are really super-useful when you go into this. And then also good boundaries help you to show up at your best.

Holly:   Yes.

Jo:       Because protecting your time, protecting your energy, means that the precious gift that you have, which is your healing, your coaching, or whatever your modality is, there is more of it and it is more…what’s the opposite of dilute?

Holly:   Intense.

Jo:       That’s it!

Holly:   Intensified…concentrated.

Jo:       Concentrated, that’s the word! It is more concentrated, and you have the good stuff to be able to deliver AND you get to maintain your life-force because of this, if we are just depleted all the time because we have got crappy boundaries then that takes it toll after a while.

Holly:   It does.

Jo:       And we are in the business of helping people build sustainable businesses: financially, energetically, emotionally, all of that stuff. So, boundaries are essential, they are the scaffold that allow us to do that.

Holly:   They are, they are. And I think it is important to identify anything that is getting in the way of your being able to identify clear boundaries, whether it is: what will people think? Will they think I am a bad person? Will they think I am too good for them? What will people say about me? Will they post things on the Internet, will people complain? Will people talk to each other? Like whatever stuff is coming up for you, whatever fears, get clear on that, and then clear that crap. Because it is really important to have clear boundaries, and you need to get rid of anything that is getting in the way of you not only creating them but upholding them.

Jo:       Absolutely, yeah.

Holly:   But I think one of the biggest things that people might have around boundaries is: what will they think of me?

Jo:       And this is a theme that runs through our work and comes up time and time again, is that: not everybody is going to look you. We all want to be liked and I think, especially operating in this online world, where we have so many examples of people’s reputations being trashed, it can sometimes be scary. The fact is not everybody is going to like you, people will disagree with you, they are not your clients, they are not your people. Your people will respect your boundaries, your people will benefit from your boundaries; and so, when we stop trying to do the impossible, which is appeal to everyone, that’s when we can actually start to thrive in our businesses as ourselves.

Holly:   Yeah. I am so glad that we had this conversation! I think it is really important stuff to be talking about, and important stuff for other people to hear, so that they can reevaluate their boundaries, so they can see if they are serving them, or whether they need to be upgraded to something that helps them to become a better entrepreneur.

Jo:       There is one fantastic resource which I want to give everyone, so there is a coach called Randi Buckley who has a program called: Healthy Boundaries for Kind People. And a sister program called Healthy Boundaries for Kind People in Business.

Holly:   Ooh!

Jo:       Her blog is great, and she writes really eloquently about this stuff, from a perspective of: you are a kind person, you want to be kind, you want to be leading from love and all of that stuff, and we can sometimes struggle with boundaries. So, we will link to that in the Show Notes as well.

Holly:   Definitely.

Jo:       And the other thing I want to leave people with is, when I used to work in organisations, in corporate, I would sometimes go to the other, because I used to run a lot of assertiveness courses and resilience courses, and it tended to be a lot of women like me, who did worry about what women thought of them, who were naturally kind and compassionate and wanted to see the best in people. And then I would also do coaching with managers who were struggling with their teams and things like that and invariably I would come across the arseholes.

Holly:   Yeah.

Jo:       I remember one guy in particular had such rigid boundaries that he was a total pain the arse to his whole team. Do you know what? He left at 5pm everyday, he took an hour for his lunch, he got all of his emails done, he was the least stressed person in there. So, this penny dropped. I remember saying to this bunch of women on the assertiveness training: we can learn a lot from the arseholes, we don’t have to be them, but we can steal some of their tricks. So, one of the things this guy would do, he would have this rigid boundary of: no one disturbs me before 10am, because that’s when I am planning my day and I am doing my emails. And it was like: oh okay, you could do that without being an arse! So, I could actually learn that off you, I could implement that. If I say that I am going to leave at a certain time, I can implement that, and I can do that without being an arse. So sometimes look at the people in your life and think: they are an arsehole, but do you know what? They have really good boundaries. And just steal some of their tricks…

Holly:   You don’t have to take the whole package.   {Both: laughing}

Jo:       I think that’s everything.

Holly:   I think so. And I think this has been a great episode and I really hope that our listeners agree, because this is important stuff.

Jo:       It is, it is. Thanks Holly, I always enjoy talking you about this stuff, I feel we get to unpack and redefine our own feelings about stuff, and our own thoughts about stuff, so this is really useful for me to do as well. So, I hope you have got some things out of it and learned from our experience if you are listening to this, and let us know what areas you struggle with when it comes to boundaries, or what will people think of me or any of those things.

Holly:   Excellent.

Jo:       We will speak to you soon!

Holly:   And I hope you found this episode interesting and useful, please drop me a line and let me know what you thought of it, you can email me at [email protected] or can you can find me on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram and get in touch with me there. I would also love to see you in my Private Facebook Group: Business Mindset Alchemists so we can continue the conversation there. I am aware that podcasting is very much a one-way conversation and I don’t like that, so I would love to hear from you, hear what you think about it, get some feedback from the group, so if you are interested you can head over to: https://www.hollyworton.com/group and you will be redirected to the Facebook group where you can join.

And that’s all for now and if you have enjoyed this episode, please leave a quick review on iTunes it would really mean the world to me. And remember to visit hollyworton.com/225 for the show notes on this episode. Thank you.