292 Joanna Hennon + Holly ~ What’s Better: Spirit Guides or Tapping into Your Intuition? Part II

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More About Joanna Hennon

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What You’ll Learn

• Why nobody has the ultimate truth on this — even us
• What is the higher self? Does it have limitations?
• Can you really get everything you need from your higher self?
• What are spirit guides? What is their role? How can we work with them?
• Where’s the best place to start? By working with spirit guides or with your higher self?
• Is guidance from your spirit guides better than guidance from your higher self? Is there a kind of hierarchy?
• Why it’s so important to view this relationship like any other
• Do you have to choose between one or the other or can you speak with both?
• What kinds of questions do you ask them? Is there a such thing as a bad question?
• How to get the wording right + ask the most powerful types of questions

Things We Discussed

• Abraham-Hicks
• 290: Jo Casey + Holly ~ What’s Better: Spirit Guides or Tapping into Your Intuition?

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Related episodes

• 290: Jo Casey + Holly ~ What’s Better: Spirit Guides or Tapping into Your Intuition?
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• BMP162 Holly Worton ~ Tap Into Your Intuition to Make Your Business Easier
• BMP141 Caroline Frenette ~ How to Master Your Intuition to Create Quantum Leaps in Business
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Transcript

The transcript for this episode can also be downloaded here (no opt-in required).

Holly: Hello, hello, and welcome to the Into the Woods podcast, episode 292. This is your host Holly Worton, and I am back with another co-hosted episode with the fabulous Joanna Hennon. This episode today is kind of a follow-up to episode 290 which I did with Jo Casey, where we talked about spirit guides vs. higher self. And, again, if you didn’t listen to that episode, this is based on an email that I received from a listener. She said:

“Spirit guides versus inner self! This has been on my mind for a while and has come to the foreground while I’ve been taking Lisa MW’s WooWoo101 course I’ve been wondering; if you rely on spirit guides for guidance, is that not… disempowering? Your inner self has all the answers, right? So is looking to spirit guides, or things like pendulums etc, not giving your power away? Is it trusting external factors rather than trusting your own inner guidance? Or are they simply all coming from the same place? I’d love to have more clarity on this, since it feels a little woolly in my head.”

So, I had this conversation with Jo Casey a couple of weeks ago and I wanted to do it with Joanna Hennon as well because I knew she would have a totally different perspective and I think this is really really good juicy question and I thought it was worth exploring with a couple of different people.

Now, I don’t think I have done this before on the podcast, I don’t think I have done the same topic with two different people, so I am really excited about this, I really look forward to hearing what you think about this, kind of taking the same topic and covering with two different people I think it provides a different perspective and I really enjoyed both conversations and I think that both conversations are useful. But, again, I really, really liked this topic.

So, what will you learn today?

You will learn why nobody has the ultimate truth on this, even us. We ask the question what is the higher self, and does it have limitations? Can you really get everything you need, everything you need from your higher self? We ask what are spirit guides, what is their role and how can we work with them? We help you understand where is the best place to start for you and how to find the best way of working – because it is going to be different for everyone. So, we answer the question: should you start working with your spirit guides first, or with your higher self? And Joanna’s guides weighed-in on this and they had a very interesting answer when we were putting together the bullet points, for the talking points that we were going to cover, they popped in and said they wanted to be part of this podcast, so they come in too.

We also answer the question is guidance from your spirit guides better than guidance from your higher self? Is there a hierarchy to the different beings or entities? We answer why it is so important to view this relationship like any other, and why you need to really cultivate the relationship, as you would with a human being. We ask the question: do you have to choose between one or the other: higher self or spirit guides, or can you work with both? We cover what kinds of questions can you ask and is there such a thing as a bad question or a wrong question? We also talk about how to get the wording right and how to ask the most powerful questions? Finally, we share how to actually get in touch with your higher self and with your spirit guides, how to make first contact by taking practical action, even if you are the kind of person who hates meditation or doing gratitude work or that kind of thing.

So, I hope you find this episode interesting and useful and I really look forward to hearing what you think about it so as always you can email me at [email protected] or find me online and get in touch there. So, without further ado I will hand you over to the episode.

Holly: Hey Joanna, good to see you!

Joanna: It is always great to have these conversations!

Holly: So, today, I think it is going to be a really juicy conversation, we are talking about working with spirit guides vs. working with your higher self. What is better? What you should do? How to approach it? So, maybe we should get started by talking about what is our higher self? {laughing}

Joanna: {laughing} Seems like a really big question, like that should be a whole podcast. So, I think we should start, I feel it is really important to start by saying that nobody has the truth, and nobody has the ultimate truth, so what I will say here, and what Holly will say here, is coming from spirit but it is also going through our own personal filters. So, this is not like a teaching moment, we are not going to enlighten you {laughing} with the truth about the universe. We are sharing I guess our own way of looking at these concepts and working with these concepts and sharing these concepts and then you can take what resonates and feels true to you and run with that and if you have a different idea or a different way of looking at it then that is also fine. I think that is really important, because you can’t actually define the higher self.

Holly: {joking} This is the ultimate truth about the higher self and that’s it period! {laughing}

Joanna: I know it is so funny, because I have always had a real problem with these generalisations or saying that anything is absolutely true, it is like: but how do you know? This is really one of those situations where we have to admit, I think not enough people admit, that they don’t have the truth, because they can’t.

Holly: We are talking about really intangible things here and really spiritual concepts, so it is like everyone is going to have their own different perspective on this stuff.

Joanna: Yeah, and we are all tuning into the same energy to get these answers but ultimately, as I said, it is filtered through your own ego and your own experience and your own kind of symbolism and all these things. So we all have different definitions that are probably a version of the truth and they can all be true at the same time, because we are all tapping into the same thing. So, I think that is really important to say before we answer the question: what is the higher self?

Holly: Yes, thank you. Thank you for giving us that framework!

Joanna: So, I think, this is the way that I look at the higher self, so there is a part of us, that is still a part of us that is in the spirit realm. So, it is kind of like, the way I have seen this explained, is that the soul is a hand and then the fingers are the personalities, so there is a central bit. {laughing}

Holly: Thingy!

Joanna: From which the personalities stem, so you are one of those fingers is the answer to what is the higher self? It is that thing that holds it all together, right? So it is the part of you that is connected to spirit. So, I talk about three levels, that’s how it was explained to me when I talked about spirituality and all these things, it is the ego, which is the bit of us that is here in the physical space, not like the negative bit of the ego, just the part that is physically here. The soul, which is our higher self, and then there is spirit which I guess is the universe, or God, or like whatever you want to call that, I just call that spirit, a bigger entity that the soul is part of. That’s the way I look at it, how about you Holly?

Holly: {laughing} Yes, so, I think you have more information on this than I do, I haven’t really ever analysed what the higher self is, I would say it is the soul, I would say it is what in Psych-K is called the super-conscious, yeah it is that part of us that has kind of a higher perspective, I guess because it is connected to spirit.

Joanna: I guess what is really important about this is that there is a connection to spirit, so it is not that you are a soul and you are born into this lifetime and you come here, and you are completely disconnected, right? There is a part of you that is still out there somewhere, there is a part of you, for me, this is the bit that is really important and if you have listened to our conversations you will know that for me it is really important to have something actionable and real and tangible and practical, I mean otherwise it is: this is interesting and let’s get back to real life, kind of thing, which is kind of pointless. So, what is important is that there is a link, there is a part of you that does have that higher perspective, that wider perspective; there is a part of you that does remember how that actually works, and there is a part of you that does know why you came into this particular lifetime, at this particular time – and I think that is the interesting bit about the higher self. So, you can think about it any way you want but the important thing is that there is a part of you that has a bigger overview, that knows the purpose, that knows where you came from, where you are going, your place in the world.

Holly: Right, because the higher self, or the soul, is the part of you that, assuming you believe in reincarnation, comes back to have different lifetimes on this realm, on this planet.

Joanna: Well, that could be a different podcast episode. {laughing}

Holly: {laughing}

Joanna: When we talk about the hand, if you could see the video, I am putting my hand horizontal in front of me and the fingers are pointing down, so the soul is the palm of the hand and the fingers are the personalities, so, reincarnation, yes, but I am not entirely convinced they happen one after the other. The impression that I get is that they all happen at the same time. So, all those fingers are happening at the same time, because there is no time, time isn’t linear. That’s a totally different conversation, maybe I should have kept my mouth shut!

Holly: {laughing} Now people are going to be like: what? It is all happening at once?

Joanna: I know, I think it is something, and it is so funny that you said that you haven’t analysed the soul. It is like, I analyse this stuff the whole time: how can past lives be if there is no past and future time? This is what it is like to be inside my brain…

Holly: {laughing} Okay, so before we move on, so assuming that time is not linear and everything is happening at once, so we could say then that our “past” lives and our present life and our future life are all happening simultaneously in different dimensions, realms, planes of consciousness?

Joanna: Something like that, it is all…so when you are talking about past life healing or something, we know that when we heal a part of us in one lifetime it heals across the lifetimes, we know that. If we work with these concepts and Holly you and have done some of this stuff together where it was very clear the link between the past life and the present life. It is fine, it serves us to think of them as past, present and future for the moment, just to know, really the most important thing to remember is that there is a bit that has the wider perspective and you are still connected to that.

Holly: Right.

Joanna: So you are not cut off, you are not on your own.

Holly: So, that leads me to ask: if that higher self, that part of us, is connected to spirit, can’t you just get everything you need from your higher self, why would you want to go outside yourself and go to spirit guides or something else?

Joanna: Yes, this is a really, really, interesting thing, right, because you would think that you could get everything from your higher self and it makes sense that you should be able to get everything from your higher self, however, the way that I understand it, the way that my guides have explained it to me and the way that I have read about in the research I have done and the books that I have read, is that there is a certain system of souls as well. So, we have systems here on earth and there are also systems up there I am going to say for lack of a better word, right? So, the soul, not every should is a spirit guide. I don’t want to use the word hierarchy either, I don’t think we really have a language to really talk about these concepts in a good way, because hierarchy implies that something is better or more advanced or more valuable.

Holly: Right, they have different roles.

Joanna: It is an advancement, but it is not judged as better or worse.

Holly: Right, everyone has got their place.

Joanna: So a spirit guide will be a soul that has either experienced more, or has had more lifetimes, or has somehow gained more knowledge or something.

Holly: Has a broader perspective.

Joanna: Yeah. So, than just a soul.

Holly: Just like one of us.

Joanna: Like one of us but we don’t know, we could in theory be here and at the same time a spirit guide to someone else, because soul can divide, it can have lots of fingers and lots of different parts.

Holly: Right and it can transcend time-space and…

Joanna: A whole other conversation {laughing}

Holly: {laughing} Exactly.

Joanna: So you can’t get everything you need from your higher self, or a better way of looking at it, perhaps, is that working with spirit guides is still valuable, they can bring something to the table.

Holly: Yes. Like you would hire a coach or a mentor in your physical reality.

Joanna: Yeah, so you can do everything by yourself, you can, but somebody else will have a different perspective and a wider experience and will also bring a different perspective to the table, so a spirit guide with more experience will also bring a different experience to the table and on top of that the spirit guide really knows your whole path, really understands where you came from and where you are going and kind of has that context.

Holly: Right.

Joanna: The higher self must have some of that as well of course but I get the impression that the spirit guide still has a wider perspective. I hope this is making sense.

Holly: Yes, I think so, I think so. So, when would you want to work with the higher self and when would you want to work with spirit guides? How does that work?

Joanna: Well, we talked a little bit about this before we started recording, Ouija and my spirit guides actually chimed in {laughing} to explain some of this stuff to us. So, what they said is that working with the higher self, working with your soul, is a matter of being really present, in the now space, being kind of… the same of us the conversation about soul-purpose, life-purpose, people think it is a thing that they need to achieve, or build, or create, whereas soul-purpose, all it is is learning to be yourself and being okay with that {laughing}. So if you want to be a super-accomplished author, that is fine, as long as that is your dream, then, yes, it is aligned with your higher self. So it is being present with who you are and what is right for you and enjoying the human experience and being here in the moment, that’s the higher self-work, and then working with spirit guides gives you a view on the bigger picture.

Holly: Right.

Joanna: My example, which is the one that they I guess they endorsed, that way of thinking what I said, for me. I asked my spirit guides about the next step to moving the family to Ireland, right? so, that is one of my big dreams, so doing that in a way that works for all of us that is a smooth and pleasant and joyful experience and where we have enough money when we get there and a nice house and all this stuff, right? That is the big picture, that is really difficult to grasp as possible.

Holly: Right.

Joanna: And so they can help you with that, they can help nudge you in the right direction. So, the soul will nudge you towards the things that are right for you and the spirit guides also {laughing} it is hard to explain!) also, things that are right for you, but also focussing on a bigger picture.

Holly: Yeah, kind of the overarching life stuff rather than the nitty gritty. Right, so I think it is really interesting what you said, and I think it was really interesting that they did this when we were kind of putting together the bullet points for this episode, they chimed in and said: hey we want to be a part of this podcast, we have something to say. So, are the spirit guides always chilling in the background and we can tap into them whenever we want, or they pop in whenever they want, or how does that work?

Joanna: Yeah, I think they are always there in the background, I really, really, do. There was a time when I was working with my spirit guide all the time and they were just always there. I think it is difficult for us to imagine that, because we are stuck on these concepts of time and stuff. I have heard people say like: doesn’t my spirit guide have other things to do than be at my beck and call?

Holly: Don’t they have to change the sheets or clean the bathroom?

Joanna: Or like guide someone else or go to a meeting with the other spirit guides, you know? {laughing} But it doesn’t work that way, they don’t have this limitation of time and space, so I do think that they are kind of just there, available in the background.

Holly: And it is our responsibility to tap in and make contact?

Joanna: Yeah, I do believe that we are guided anyway, some people don’t say that they work with spirit guides, but that they work with signs in the universe and what do you think that is? That is also going to be some manifestation of guidance, right? So I think they do try to guide us.

Holly: Yes, in whatever way we are receptive to, because obviously some people are open to this stuff and some people are totally not.

Joanna: Exactly, in whatever way we are receptive to. You said the word responsibility, it certainly is our responsibility to follow the guidance, so they can’t actually do that for us.

Holly: We have to take the action.

Joanna: We have to take the action and we are constantly being guided and we know this, even people who don’t consider themselves spiritual, they might have an idea that won’t go away. They are being guided towards something and if they choose to ignore that idea because they don’t think they are ready or they are not good enough, or whatever, or whatever, then nothing is going to happen. Spirit guides can’t do more than that, they won’t stand in front of you in human form and be like: do this or else.

Holly: Right!

Joanna: {laughing}

Holly: And they can be really vague in what they say and kind of cryptic, so their messages aren’t always super clear.

Joanna: I think that is something one can work on. That has certainly been my experience, I am not really interested in, this sounds really funny…I am not really interested in messages of trust and love, you know? That doesn’t interest me at all, I used to find it so frustrating and people would think it is really amusing or like, not even amusing, people would find it shocking that I would say to myself: that is not good enough. Like, give me more, give me something I can actually use. I do think, any relationship, you need to set expectations and guide the relationship so that you feel good in the relationship. What’s the use of having a spirit guide that talks about love and trust all the time and you don’t know what to do? That’s not good for them or for you and their job is to guide you and if you can’t be guided through messages that are vague then nobody is happy.

Holly: Yes.

Joanna: So, like any relationship you can and should say what you want and there will be pushback if they don’t want to give it to you, they won’t, it is not like you want to control them.

Holly: I think it is really good that you are using the word relationship because it is, it is not like they are the authority or we are the authority and can tell them what to do, there is a give and take and the more you give them the better you know them better the better you get guidance.

Joanna: It is a relationship, it is not like we control them, and the opposite is true they don’t control us. It is not like some all-knowing thing where you can be like, I think our example was: should I marry Mike or not? They are not going to tell you that, we bring it back to the higher self, your soul purpose is to learn to be you and learn to trust your own intuition and your own nudges, right? So, they can’t tell you that, that would be against the whole system. They can guide you to ways so that your intuition is stronger, or they can guide you to something that will make that decision, but they can’t actually tell you.

Holly: That’s really interesting because years ago, 12-15 years ago when I was in a kind of dark period of my life and unhappy and not knowing what actions to take because I was so out of touch with myself, I worked with the pendulum a lot. So I would ask the pendulum: should I do this, should I do that? Like totally the wrong questions to be asking the pendulum and when I asked the kind of question that I shouldn’t be asking it it would not give me an answer. I get very clear yes and no answers on my pendulum, it is not wishy-washy, it is very clear, unless I ask it a shitty question, in which case it would just go all over the place and do a bunch of stuff. I would be like: okay, how do I rephrase this or what do I do? It would not give me a clear response, because I wasn’t asking the right questions.

Joanna: That’s it, we want to be asking powerful questions. The way I explain this, because powerful questions are actually just part of guiding you back to your own intuition so that you do ask the right questions. We all start here, yours was the pendulum, mine was the cards. Argh when I was younger, when I was in college, it was the Ouija-board.

Holly: Really, I have never used one of those. Those kind of freak me out.

Joanna: There was a time when I would ask the Ouija-board everything. It is not like one of my finest moments, I was playing with some stuff that really, I didn’t understand, and it wasn’t good, it really was not good. I was like addicted to it. I was addicted to that process of asking a question and immediately getting an answer.

Holly: Yeah.

Joanna: Right, because that’s what we want, we all want clarity and clear direction. We all want to know: if we do this and this, then this is going to be our result.

Holly: Yep.

Joanna: It is addictive, so now I teach powerful questions so that we don’t do that. I can go beyond that and one of the things that I always say is what is the assumption I underlying your question and we want to make sure that the assumption underlying the question is powerful, is I am powerful I know how to do this, this is meant to for me. So you are not asking questions like: is this the right thing for me? Or am I good enough to run this business?

Holly: Yeah, coming from a place of lack and fear.

Joanna: Right, because those assumptions really matter. The more powerful the question the more powerful the answer can be and the better that it can guide you to the things that you want to experience.

Holly: But unfortunately a lot of people come to this stuff when they are not in a good place, they are not in a place of empowerment, so they might not have a good first experience, or first few experiences, because they are in a shitty place, they are not coming from a good place, they are asking for guidance and it all goes wonky.

Joanna: Yeah, it is true. I mean, totally, totally, true. I think most people will come to this stuff from that place because again we are all human and we all want the good stuff and we find out: oh, there is something that can tell me what to do, I will have some of that!

Holly: Yeah, exactly.

Joanna: That’s totally normal and then you start getting messages that are vague or they don’t want to answer your questions or whatever. You get silence and you start moving through that process of learning to work with what you do get and leaning to ask better questions and really being present in that relationship and making demands as well. I think that is part of it, just like in any relationship, you need to say what you want, right? You let that develop then.

Holly: So, how do you get in touch with these things, how do you get in touch with your higher self? How do you get in touch with your spirit guides? How would you explain first contact for people who have not yet made first contact?

Joanna: I feel it is easier than you think. Being with your higher self, let’s just start with that, is easier to grasp. Being with your higher self is just being with you.

Holly: You are already there.

Joanna: So, all you need to do is be fully present with yourself, this is why meditative practices or being in the moment or doing what you love. I am not a meditator, so I learned to use, and I continue to use, and I continue to teach intuitive art as the best way of being with yourself. There is something about that creative process that mirrors the process of being in the world and it allows you to quiet the mind and just be with yourself in that space with what is without judgement, without expectation. So there is something about intuitive art that really facilitates that really nicely and if you want to get started with that and you don’t know what I am talking about then just get a colouring book, colour mindfully. You could even write a question at the top of the colouring page.

Holly: Yes, set an intention.

Joanna: What am I… Or I want to feel good. Or set an intention or ask a question. Then colour and just be in the moment.

Holly: What that does obviously is that it takes your conscious mind and it focuses it on something that is easy to focus on, it is not running through all the crap that is in your mind: I have to go buy milk, I have to do that, I have to do this, it is focussing it on something that is very simple.

Joanna: That is exactly it, right? It is exactly it, because you can’t hear intuitive guidance, you can’t hear your higher self. The higher self is in a different dimension, you need to quiet down the mind crap otherwise there is just too much noise. It is not like you won’t be able to hear it, but you won’t be able to distinguish it from all the voices, that’s it. It is a distinction.

Holly: Also, I find that we are so used to hearing our inner voices, our mind chatter, that it is like the volume is high on that stuff and the higher self or the intuitive guidance kind of whispers at first because you are not used to hearing that voice and you kind of need to quiet the loud stuff and then turn up the volume on the intuitive stuff, that’s a process of doing it, exercising that muscle.

Joanna: Totally, it is just a muscle. This feels like a good time to say that the voices that are probably really loud in your head, especially if you are starting out with this connection stuff, they are going to be negative voices, they are going to be saying: you are not enough, you are not good enough, nobody loves you, you are alone etc. etc. The higher self will never say that.

Holly: Yes.

Joanna: If you are not sure how to distinguish, when we say: you already hear the voice of your higher self, but you are not distinguishing it, this is how to distinguish it. All the negative stuff, all the stuff that makes you feel bad, all the stuff that keeps you from doing what you really want, that’s the illusion, the only voice that is true is the voice of the higher self and that will always be supportive, that will always be a voice that feels comforting and good.

Holly: Yeah, your higher self is not going to be like: you are such an idiot, you failed that test you are going to have take it again, like what the hell is wrong with you? It is not going to say that.

Joanna: By the way neither will the spirit guides, the spirit guides will never say that ever either, although the spirit guides will challenge you.

Holly: Yeah, they will give you a kick up the butt.

Joanna: Exactly, it is like the higher self is you, so you are not going to give yourself a kick in the butt usually, sometimes you will, you will just be you. Whereas the spirit guides you will say to the spirit guides: oh I wanted this, this has happened to me, it is a true story, I wanted this, and you didn’t deliver. They will be like: but you didn’t choose it. That’s it, it is still: you didn’t choose it. You still need to make those choices, those active choices and take the action and really step up, not just say that you are stepping up. The spirit guides will challenge you on stuff like that, where you are going to be: hey, you guys. They will be like: no, no.

Holly: Exactly, like the joke about the guy who is in the flood and he calls on God for help and God sends a boat and the guy is like: I am drowning you didn’t come and help me, and it is like I did I sent you the boat, I sent you this, I sent you that, I can’t pluck you up off and put you on the boat, you gotta take some action.

Joanna: I love that joke by the way, I have always loved that joke. It is only recently that I have realised even as a child that really appealed to me because it is just so true, right? The important thing about the image of the guy with the boat, the drowning guy and the boat is that you have to take the opportunities that are around you, because I think this is very off course from spirit guides and inner self but in terms of guidance, in terms of opportunities that are sent your way, you say that you want something and then you have a bunch of choices and then you reject the because they are not good enough, because it is not exactly what you wanted, because of this, because of that, and you are not moving any further, right? This happened to me when I first started, I said for years that I was a practising pagan, that I was doing all sorts of stuff, I kept saying I wanted to do some more spiritual development, I wanted to do a course, I want to really get into this but I live in a country that is not English speaking so I can’t. So, actually I was looking for stuff in London and I had to move to London and then I met my now husband and didn’t move to London, but in the meantime, I was making all these stories about why I can’t do this thing. There was an opportunity for me, but it was in a language that I didn’t speak, and I remember saying I can’t do this because it is in Dutch and they were like: but then you are not going to do it at all. Like, this is what you have, you have to the best you can with what you have, this is what is available to you right now.

Holly: So what did you do, considering you didn’t speak the language and you wanted to take the course?

Joanna: I took the course.

Holly: How did you understand things?

Joanna: It was an exercise in leaning to listen with the heart. So I practised not focussing on the individual words but on trying to get the messages. So, it worked pretty well, it was intuitive art as well, a lot of it was my own personal development, some of it was translated to me, I did it with a friend who spoke both Dutch and English. So some of it was translated when I couldn’t get it, there was plenty of support, and that started my whole path on my spiritual journey, on the business journey, on everything; but it I had the had the courage to say: okay, what I want in an ideal world isn’t showing up for me, it doesn’t mean that it is not the right thing for me, it doesn’t mean that the spirit guides aren’t helping me, it doesn’t mean any of those things, it just means this is my path for now, right?

Holly: Sometimes the thing our spirit guides give us is not all wrapped up in a nice neat package, sometimes you have to go even though you don’t speak the language. It is not idea, but it is the right thing.

Joanna: That’s it. Spirit guides won’t necessarily give you what you want in the ideal packaging, and you have to have the courage to just go with it, to recognise the opportunities, to do the best you can with what you have instead of getting stuck in these stories of why you can’t have, or the spirit guides aren’t delivering.

Holly: They are maybe not delivering what you want, how you want, where you want.

Joanna: Right and that is also a learning experience to not be attached to what the thing looks like but to just go with the flow of what is available at the moment. That doesn’t mean that we can’t ask for more, all these things can be in existence in our lives at the same time, but yeah just a little aside on how sometimes when things show up, they are not what you expected.

Holly: Or they don’t look like what you were thinking you were going to get. So, do we have to choose between one or the other or can we work with the higher self and the spirit guide, how do we balance this?

Joanna: I think we need to be working with both, we talked about this a little bit before we started recording and I said something that my guides later corrected me on, so I said we should start, or it is normal for us to start by working with spirit guides because we have this tendency to ask questions of an external source and all this stuff but in fact my guides corrected me and said that’s not true. So, although we can have both, it seems that and it makes sense, now that I hear it, it seems to our advantage to work with the higher-self first so that we are stronger so we are strong and confident in ourselves, so that we trust our own path and that we like ourselves. So that we get used to enjoying our time here and not keep striving for me.

Holly: Right, so that we come from a place of empowerment and when we speak with the spirit guides, we are asking the right questions and not the: oh I don’t know what to do, help me.

Joanna: exactly, then they can fulfil their purpose in this relationship as well because let’s not forget they are not there just for us, they also have a purpose to fulfil, or a contract or something. Maybe in another lifetime you were their spirit guide, my first spirit guide, I know that we had a lifetime together. So, the relationships are deeper than just human and spirit guide.

Holly: Right, they are relationships that span as you said different lifetimes which we all know now are all happening simultaneously.

Joanna: Let’s not think about that! {Both: laughing} Let’s just think of time as linear.

Holly: Okay, so what kinds of questions can you or should you ask? We have talked a lot about asking the right question and asking the wrong question, so, specifically, can you give some examples to people about what kind of questions are good and bad questions to ask, or might be useful questions to ask?

Joanna: I don’t know, I think maybe you need to start with whatever you want to know, you have to, I can’t give you questions. Powerful question start with words like: how, why, what, like: what is my next best step to support my goal? Not: why is this not working out for me? That is not a good question, you want them to be positive.

Holly: {joking} How do I get what I want? {laughing}

Joanna: Well how do I get what I want, let’s see…

Holly: What actions do I need to take to experience…?

Joanna: So, how do I get what I want can be a good question because you are assuming that you can get what you want, and you just need to the how – so that is a good question to ask. The higher self, the reason this is coming out so slowly is that I am trying to think how I would do it. So, for the higher self, I think when I was working with the higher self at the start it was more on themes, but also on success. Working with the higher self is like getting to know yourself.

Holly: Yes, on multi-levels.

Joanna: That’s really what it is, it is like accepting that this is what success looks like for you.

Holly: A lot of journaling stuff, answering journal prompts and that kind of thing helps me personally really connect, I love that stuff.

Joanna: Journaling, I am still a big fan of intuitive art, it just takes that thinking piece out of the equation. I was never a creative person, I was told that I sucked at art when I was at school, so I didn’t want to do it, that was another reason I didn’t want to do this course in Dutch

Holly: Can’t understand the language, can’t draw. How are you going to do this?

Joanna: Thinking back I was like: man I was brave! {Both: laughing} But it really, because it is creative it is not an art class, it is just a tool, a communication tool and it really helps you take that thinking piece out. Now, I am better at journaling, when I was first starting out, I found that when I journaled, I got stuck in these loops of overthinking. It wasn’t actually that helpful to me, now I can do it more helpful way, a more supportive way. It kind of just depends how you work. You need to find the right tool for you.

Holly: And I think it can be useful also when you are in a good space, I think journaling is useful, I think I, years ago, did this business mentoring program with someone and she really encouraged us to do morning pages, every day for the duration of this nine month program. I was like: she said this was important so I am going to do it, and so I did it every day for nine months and I hated it, because I wasn’t in a good spot at the time, so my three pages of A4 size shit were shit, it was so awful, it was like all the dark crap was coming up to the surface and I was writing it but it was like every day the same thing and no resolution, there was no moving on from that, it was like dredging up the crap but just letting it sit there.

Joanna: It is actually what they say now about talk therapies that they are not as useful as we once thought. They are useful for some people, if you are listening to this and had success then awesome, fantastic, but for a lot of people it is like you said, Holly, just dredging up the crap {laughing}

Holly: And then not doing anything with it.

Joanna: So you have to really see what works for you. That’s the main thing.

Holly: And different things might work for you at different times of life. So, just because you have a practice that you love, if next year you start hating it, that doesn’t mean that something is wrong with you, it just means that you may need to try something different.

Joanna: Totally, I am a big, big, believer of that and remember that any of these practices are meant to help you, if it is not helping you, if it is not putting you in the right high vibration space, confidence space, to be going out in the world and doing what you want, and feeling good about it, then it is not working, that’s not the right thing for you.

Holly: And that’s what those damn morning pages were for me. I hated every single minute of it.

Joanna: I don’t like morning pages either by the way. So, that is the higher self, that’s just spending time with you. A lot of people say that they feel connected with their higher self when they do things like music, or art, or something creative…

Holly: Painting for me.

Joanna: Something that really fulfils them and puts them, even running, some people really love running. Being with yourself that is the higher-self thing, and how to work with spirit guides, even though I am not a meditator, even I will admit that it has its uses {Both: laughing} and when I started working with spirit guides I would close my eyes, and do a little visualisation or something to meet with them and that is how I used to teach this stuff and that is how I would get other people to meet theirs, I have yet to meet anybody for whom the spirit guide doesn’t show up, it always works. Just set that intention, close your eyes, and maybe imagine yourself in a safe space of some kind.

Holly: Relax, relax.

Joanna: Some people use a bubble and invite the spirit guide into that bubble. I just like my safe space, I walk through these woods and then there is a clearing with a beach, it is a small beach, so that’s nice. Yes, you can use intuitive art as well, you can use lots of things, I think the intent is most important if you intend to connect with your spirit guide then they will show up. Then like any relationship you get to feel what that feels like, you will feel different talking to your spirit guide than talking to yourself, and you can’t do that, you won’t be able to recognise that unless you do it a lot, right?

Holly: Yeah. So, one thing I really struggled with at the beginning, when I first started connecting with guides it was like: am I making this up? Is this for real, or is it just like I am day-dreaming and this is my fantasy?

Joanna: Me too, me too. I had a real, I started channelling, for clients very quickly and it used to terrify me, I was like: what if I am just making this up? {laughing}

Holly: For me, the sign that I wasn’t making it up was that they used different language, they speak differently from how I speak, or they write differently from my style, so it felt like a different person. When I am working on the tree book that I am doing now, and I have channelled a bunch of trees for this book, I could feel emotion that wasn’t mine, in my body, I could feel something different.

Joanna: Yeah, everybody will feel it differently, I think that, to be honest, for me, what really helped was being really honest with myself about the fact that it doesn’t really matter, it doesn’t matter if it is coming from this spirit guide, or this spirit guide, or spirit, or God, or I don’t know the plant next door, or my higher self, it doesn’t matter, it was clearly coming from somewhere, I wasn’t making up a story, it was really kind of flowing.

Holly: Right.

Joanna: It doesn’t matter, this is my whole thing about spiritual connection and soul connection and all this stuff, it doesn’t really matter what the truth is, all that matters is that you are getting stuff, getting information, that helps you live a better and happier life.

Holly: Yes.

Joanna: That’s all that matters. I had this conversation with someone many years ago and she was like: how can you prove it?

Holly: you can’t.

Joanna: I don’t need to prove it, I am not hurting anybody, in fact I am helping people, at the time I am helping myself I felt better in my life and I thought that I could do the same for others and for me that is all that matters, we are all going to die and maybe find out that it all works a lot differently to how we imagined but that is okay.

Holly: Yeah, I think as long as we are contributing to ourselves and the world and helping lift ourselves and lift other people up and make this world a better place then I think it is good.

Joanna: And even that can be too much pressure. I think we could get stuck in making the world a better place. Really, all we need to do is make sure that we are in ourselves.

Holly: But I think that is making the world a better place. If everyone were aligned with themselves that would be amazing, that’s my goal.

Joanna: That’s the goal of my work in the world.

Holly: That would make a massive shift.

Joanna: I agree, that’s my goal, if we take making the world a better place as a goal, then we are still taking an external goal, it is still external to us. I really think that everything benefits from, as you say, from us coming back to ourselves and being in alignment with our higher self and letting our guides support us. Maybe this is something to mention, I think we are going to wrap up soon, something to mention, I was saying to Holly right before we started recording that I don’t really work with my guides so much anymore, that’s when they chimed in and were: that’s a mistake.  {Both: laughing} And the reason for that is working with your spirit guides is allowing in support.  So, there is that element of: yes you are powerful and yes you are a soul, that doesn’t mean that you are separate from everything else; you are still part of a bigger system and can tap into even more Wisdom and guidance so letting your spirit guides support you is actually a really important part of the process, it will help everything. So, just a little note.

Holly: That will be hard for people because a lot of people feel they have to do it all on their own, in physical reality much less spiritual reality, so it is like I can’t ask for help, I need to take out the kids to school, and clean the house and do this, hold down a job. So many people feel like they have to do everything on their own, so it is natural that you also feel like you have to do everything on your own in terms of guidance.

Joanna: Yes, indeed, and that’s what they said, right? They said that’s not the most helpful let’s say way of looking at it because we are all walking around as these individuals who want to feel all powerful and all tuned in and tapped in or whatever, but we are keeping ourselves, each of us, separate almost.

Holly: Also, it was them that said that thinking that we are all powerful, as a self-contained thing lacks the humility of someone who realises that they are part of something much bigger.

Joanna: Yeah, they did say that, and I thought that was really interesting, because in a way, working with you higher self and all that, one of the goals is to feel powerful, I want the people I help to feel powerful in themselves. There is also that element of feeling ah, so it is powerful, but powerful doesn’t mean all on your own, it doesn’t mean, it is not in the same sense that we have here in earth, so there is an element of being vulnerable enough to accept that you need support, or support is just a normal part of your life. My guides are saying at the moment that we used to have this on earth, we used to be more in communities. And that support, you weren’t weak, or whatever, it wasn’t a thing to ask for support, it wasn’t even a consideration because the support was just there. It was a normal part of existence.

Holly: Right, everyone helps everyone else. Some people have the strengths…

Joanna: It wasn’t something you had to ask for, or consider: am I the kind of person who can ask for help? We didn’t need to consider these things, that’s the shift that needs to happen again, and when you work with your guides, you are allowing a level of support that is just helpful on so many different levels.

Holly: Good!

Joanna: I hope that made sense. I keep saying that, but I feel like I just open my mouth and all this stuff comes out. {laughing} I don’t know if it is coherent or not.

Holly: I think it is, and I think that was a really good exploration of the topic and how we can make it practical. So, to bring it down to even more practical level who has never made first contact (joking: because this is Star Trek!) what would you recommend to someone who is listening in their lives and is like: okay, I am going to do it, where do I start? I know we have talked about journaling and the art stuff, what is one practical thing that someone could do?

Joanna: Well, you know what, the one that is coming to me, so I am just going to say it {laughing} is come work with me. {Both: laughing} I run an awesome group called the SoulSpace, it is affordable, it is vibrant, it is super. It is a consistency thing, working with your higher self and your spiritual connection and all these things, it is a consistency thing, it is not you pulling a card once a month or pulling 12 cards each one at the start of the year, and then doing nothing else for the rest of the year. It is a consistent daily thing to align with who you are and doing that as part of a group is awesome.

If that is not your thing, where do you start? Make a commitment, I actually started with oracle cards and I made sure to pull one every day. First, I would pull one in the morning and just be like: what is my message for today? Then, in the evening, I would see how that panned out, the way, what I noticed about the card, and what I assumed the card meant in the morning was the way that it showed up for me after I had gone through the day. So that is how I started, and this is something, actually, I haven’t told you this yet, Holly, but I am going to run something. I used to run a program that was based on that, and I am going to run it again, it is called: Jump Start Your Intuition, I don’t know when, but sometime soon. It was just a really fun way to jump start your intuition and get into that habit and also start to notice your own personal symbolism for your higher self and your guides and whatever. How do you receive messages? When you see the colour red, what does that mean? When you see the butterfly what does that mean? You have to develop your own dictionary, almost, of symbolism.

Holly: It is about heightening your awareness of these things.

Joanna: Yes, so, paying attention, that’s it.

Holly: Cool, all right!

Joanna: How about you? Anything you want to add about starting, because you also…

Holly: It is about finding what works for you, so, for me it is journaling, answering journal prompts, journaling on my own, but one thing that I have done is trying to keep it to a minimum, so not doing that morning pages stuff where you just dump on the page and if I feel like things are getting too dark, or if I am going through a shitty week, I will turn it around by using gratitude. And this is something that I forget about all the time, I am not one of those people who does a gratitude list every day, I will do it and then I forget about it for a few months and then something reminds me and I come back. That is to me the number one thing that kind of turns my perspective around and gets me out of the crap and into a better place mentally.

Joanna: What a great illustration of how different things work for different people, I hate gratitude stuff.

Holly: Yeah, and a lot of people do.

Joanna: This is the thing, you have to follow what feels good to you, that doesn’t mean that I am not grateful, I am super grateful, but that whole gratitude practice thing, doesn’t work for me because I end up with the same answers every time: my husband, my son, my house…it doesn’t make me feel any better. Something that does make me feel good, and I use often, is appreciation and I got that from Abraham Hicks, so just making sure that you notice either notice all the good things in your day, because if I am in a bad place I will keep a list: this person smiled at me on the tram, or this person bought me a cup of coffee, whatever those good things are because I think we tend to forget, so that’s my version of gratitude or if I am annoyed with a specific thing then I make myself write out a list of everything appreciate about that. So, this for example works for anybody who is in a job and want to have a business, you don’t want to be hating on your job, so one of the first thing you should be doing is writing out regularly a list of things that you appreciate about your job beyond the money.

Holly: Yes, yes. That is kind of like gratitude work though.

Joanna: It is, it is a reframe.

Holly: It is the word that works for you.

Joanna: It is just a slightly different perspective and this is why we can’t discount things that could come our way of doing them, you can’t just say that I don’t do gratitude work at all, just I do it my own way.

Holly: Exactly, exactly.

Joanna: That’s what we encourage everybody to do, right?

Holly: Yes, find the thing that works for you and do it until it doesn’t work any more and then find something else. All right so I think that we have covered this as much as we can for today and I think it has been useful.

Joanna: What was our original question? {laughing}

Holly: The original question was: spirit guides vs. inner self. So, is looking to spirit guides giving your power away? Should you be doing that or trusting your inner guidance or is it all the same thing?

Joanna: Okay, so we did kind of answer it. So, in a nutshell, you want to be doing both, you start with the inner stuff so that you have the right confident energy to ask the right questions of the spirit guides and accept that support, it can be disempowering, if you are looking for external validation or someone to tell you what to do. It is important to not let it be disempowering, so stay empowered in your powerful space and watch those assumptions at the base of your questions.

Holly: And you stay in empowered by doing the contact and doing the work with your higher self.

Joanna: So I think we did answer the question!

Holly: Yay, but if anyone listening to this has any other questions feel free to get in touch with us. So, Joanna?

Joanna: You can email me at [email protected] or message me on any of the social media.

Holly: And I am at [email protected] or you can find me on me on my website and find the links to social stuff there.

Joanna: Excellent! That was interesting, I hope that it helped and you guys were listening and if you are not doing this stuff already, you start doing something, it is really useful practice to connect with you higher self and with your guys.

Holly: Give it a try.

 

Holly: I hope you enjoyed this episode with Joanna Hennon and me and like I said I really look forward to hearing what you thought of the two different conversations on the same topic. So, again, I look forward to giving you feedback on that so again you can email me; [email protected] or get in touch online. Also, I would love for you to join me on http://Patreon.com/HollyWorton membership starts at $1 a month and you get exclusive access to content and done-for-you mindset work that I don’t do or offer anywhere else, including a monthly Q and A where you can ask me just about anything.

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