BMP196 Marianne Cantwell ~ How to Make Big Changes in Your Business in an Unconventional Way

Today’s Guest

About Marianne

Listen to this episode

  

What You’ll Learn

• What it was like to start a business in a space where there were no formulas and blueprints
• What happened when Marianne took three months off her business and let it run on its own with her team
• How Marianne stepped out of the formula that had brought her success, and how she stepped into something new
• The wild experiment that Marianne undertook to prove to herself that she could make money from scratch with a completely different business model
• The sign that it was time for things to change in Marianne’s business
• Why Marianne chose to step off the usual trajectory in business and pivot into something different
• Marianne’s top tips on how to make big changes in your business

Inspiring Woman

• Elizabeth Gilbert 

Things We Discussed

• TED talk: The hidden power of not (always) fitting in
• Free Range Humans 

Connect with Marianne

• Website
• Instagram
• Twitter
• Facebook

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Transcript

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How to Make Big Changes in Your Business in an Unconventional Way, with Marianne Cantwell 

HW:      Hello and welcome to the Business Mindset Podcast, episode 196. This is your host Holly Worton and I am here with today’s special guest, Marianne Cantwell. Marianne is all about growing a life and business without compromising who you are. She is the author of a best-selling entrepreneurship book, the founder of Free Range Humans, and has since taken her seven years-experience of running an online business to be a strategy mentor to business owners who aren’t ‘follow the leader’ types.

I am super excited to have you back on the show, Marianne, because you were one of my first guests in September 2013, episode 7, so welcome back.

MC:     Ah thanks Holly!

HW:      So, why don’t you tell us a little bit about your background and your business journey and what you have been doing the last few years, since we last spoke and since you started your business Free Range Humans.

MC:     Well, thanks for that, because I, it is funny, when we last spoke I think I was probably in a phase where my book had probably just come out, and I was super excited about all that, and what happened, just to back track a bit, you know, when I first started my own business, having the whole like quit your job stuff, start your business thing, and create freedom and travelling the world with my business in a suitcase, as you do. That, at the time, that was a really different world of online business, it was very young at the time. So, people who are newer to the scene now, you are probably inundated with all the options, for like a billion different masterminds and coaches and formulas. Well you know if you go on Facebook now, that’s what we see in the ads, but when I started out, even though it wasn’t that long ago, only seven or eight years ago, it wasn’t like that. What it was, it was this beautiful creative space, where it was about, you did things on your own terms, because there weren’t any other terms to find anyway [Both: laughing]. Like, you could get guidance, but it wasn’t cool, it was a little bit you know, it was back in the days of yellow highlighter pen on webpages, you know. It wasn’t like…you could even be like do things in a fun way, or do things in a scam-y way, there wasn’t this other space, and so I totally lucky in that I got to experience what it was like to live in a business world that didn’t have as many formulas going around.

What happened, however, after my business took off; I had, like 20,000 readers, I had a sort of six-figure business doing cool stuff, was that suddenly – I had started my work, because I am someone who I think, very much like you Holly, I like to be able to do things, not just on my terms but actually as the person I am. That to me… [HW: yes!] You know what I mean? I think a lot of listeners to your podcast are going to be on that wavelength – it is about being who you are because I don’t think we have a choice in that if we want to live a good life. That’s where our best strengths lie, that’s where our best contributions lie, it’s where our happiness lies. So that’s what I wanted to do. And then suddenly I found myself, not only having a thriving business, but suddenly being prominent in a space that no longer represented who I was. And so, I literally had a bit of an identity crisis, because I was like ‘hold up did they just change the backdrop? [HW: laughing]. Because, that is what it felt like, I felt like I was in this play, and now I am in that play. And that play is not one I would have chosen to be in. And so, you know – it was all about the whole, you know, I have got a five-part formula that will get you seven-figure success and unicorns, or something, was doing the rounds, and I was suddenly being associated with that, even though it was not what I was ever about. [HW: oh!] I know, it is really hard right?

And so, I decided, you know, all the people I was hanging out with at the time, that were in this space, we’re all really gunning for the next level, whatever that was to them at the time. And, at one point I had a conversation with someone that said: “we have hit six figures in our business, I am going to make seven figures this year, are you going to do it too?” And I remember pausing. [HW: laughing]. I know it is crazy! And I was in Bali, and I remember pausing and I just said ‘hold up I thought we got to take a break now.’ [laughing] ‘We’ve done it.’ And they were like ‘No it’s there, we should go and do it’. And I remember at this point thinking: ‘I thought it was insane before and now I definitely do’. [laughing]

And, so, what happened was, I took three months off my business around that time. And I was like ‘okay something is wrong, put the brakes on’ and the next year I took three months off, 100% offline. I didn’t check in, I had my team running things, it took me like a few months to set it up so it flowed without me, thinking everything would break. And I was like, ‘what will happen if I don’t show up to my business for three months?’. What happened was that nothing broke, it went really well, and I had some time to think about my direction, and that was the start of the next phase in what I was doing, which was actually stepping a little bit away from that world quite consciously, and asking myself ‘hold on, what we are having herein a specific way of seeing the world, and a specific way of seeing success, but, what is the bigger picture view?’

And so what I did at that point, I started making friends, this is a random one, with people who are in their 70s and their 80s – I know, this is my new hobby, I hang out with people in their 70s and 80s, it is my new best thing to do. But, specifically people who had had a success in their life, people who I admired, who maybe led a field at a certain point. And, I hung out with them, and all them were just like: “yeah, just chill out, it’ll be fine, you don’t need to worry so much”. All the people who are pushing really hard, and kind of going for the one shot to win everything at once, they are not going to be around in 10 years; but it is the long and the steady stuff. And and that sort of mentorship that I have had I think by hanging out with those people, has kind of shifted what I have been doing ever since. That was a very long answer to your question, but a lot of thinking happened basically.

HW:      I think that is an excellent answer to the question, because, I think people who have just come to the business world, in the world of online business, it is so easy to give up, because you know you don’t have that many costs, you have got your computer, you are probably work from home, that kind of thing, so it is so easy if things, if a formula doesn’t work for you, or the blueprint or whatever. It is so easy to just go “oh well, I will just give up and go back to what I was doing before”, which was a horrible corporate job or whatever. So, I think it is easy for people to get to that stage where rather than pushing through and figuring out what is the next level for them, or what is the next evolution of their business, or whatever, they are just going “oh well, I will just give up”. So, I think you are right a lot of people don’t stick it out.

MC:     And I actually think that there is – just as a little rider to that – I think the bigger point is we have most of the messaging online these days, I assume everyone listening is familiar with that stuff; is actually aimed, and something I started realising, it is aimed at people not having success. [HW: yes!]. And it speaks to you like you are a little bit of a loser. [HW: yeah] That’s honestly the state and I was sitting there going ‘what about people who have had success, or who are used to having success, and maybe something is not working now, but what if things are going well on the outside? And what I had realised at that point was, we talk a lot about leaving a job, but what is happening, at the moment, in a very formulaic online world, is that people have been creating jobs for themselves, [HW: yes] but those jobs just look good. [HW: yes] And you know you poke the surface and they are not always that great. But, that’s what happening, and I this is why I am actually coming out and talking about it a lot more now, because I don’t think it is talked about, that freedom doesn’t come from following a formula.

            Formulas are great, like, I am fan of using formulas when you know that there is a specific thing that you need. So, if you know that you were going to sell your coaching things through personal conversations; it is probably really useful to learn a few different ways to have better conversations, they are really useful. But, when it comes to the meta-formulas for how should a business look, what does success look like, what’s the five-step formula for success, what is the blueprint; that is not the way freedom lies. Because #1 that is contingent on you having the same personality as the person who created it, having the same life circumstances, and there is a lot, if you are not playing with it, you are going to get really stuck. But #2, if it does work for you because you are really similar to them or something like that, then, it is like being back in a job, because it cages you into doing things in one specific way, and it really limits your options and also your identity around like who are you allowed to be. So, I guess the rider on it is that we often talk about this thing stops us having success, but I really want to redefine what does it actually mean to have success. Because what I found, what surprised me since Holly, is that I changed a lot of my business as a result of this stuff.

HW:      Mm so how did things change for you?

MC:     Loads, loads and loads and loads of ways, for one thing, I have been running, for five years I have been running something called the Friday love letter, which was my weekly email; I used to write these – I am sure you were on the list – these epic emails, very personal, sent to my list and very occasionally they would be sent publicly, like blogged, but usually they went to my email list. I shut that down, which was a pretty big move. And that wasn’t immediate, that was a few years later after that happened, everything had led to that. Thinking ‘that’s ridiculous’ because that was my main marketing channel; [HW: laughing] right? You don’t shut down your main marketing channel, and I managed with no marketing for like a year as well. But what happened was that, firstly, because I had been doing the work I had been doing for a while, which obviously is important, you can’t just shut down your main marketing channel from day one, but I had been doing it for a while; instead of things closing down, I found things started to actually open up. I was like ‘I am not doing anything anymore’ and what happened was I started noticing the conversations and opportunities around me.

So, I had been working with people who were really at a beginner kind of level for a really long time but, actually, the reason I got recommendations a for years I had been secretly, quietly mentoring, essentially, my colleagues who had established businesses. I was the one they would call when something was going wrong with their marketing, I was the one they would call if they were feeling a bit blocked. And I was just doing it because it was what I did, but then of course then they would recommend me to their clients. And I was like “hold up why have I never allowed myself to charge for that?” And I didn’t, because I was stuck in the mindset that I had a particular business and a brand that looked a certain way. And, so, I think that is a big lesson for all of us, that when are… I was so convinced that if I took one step out of that, then I wouldn’t have a business, that I wouldn’t have a brand, that everything would collapse. Which is ridiculous when you think about it? [HW: yes] but I was convinced of it. And I could have told you in detail why there was definitely no possibility.

So, what I did at that point was I thought: ‘okay, I need to prove to myself that this isn’t the only way I can make an income.’ I am really good at launching online courses, I can do that really easily, I know how to fill an online course, it is second nature now. But, what if my reputation disappeared over night; what if the internet no longer existed, what would I do to make money? And this is something I do often in my life, is where I take something that is a fear, that’s stopping me doing something different, and I confront that by proving to myself that fear doesn’t have to exist, or by taking it to the extreme. So, yeah, it is a bit of a life hack that I have taken on many times. And with this one I was like: ‘okay if my fear is actually about that’, which is what it really was – I had all these excuses but it boiled down to: I had a thing but what else can I do, aside from what I do? And I was like ‘fine prove it to yourself’ and so what I did was [laughing] I said ‘I can’t use my email list, and I can’t use my following for this because that would be cheating, how could I make money from scratch?’ With no resources, and no reputation, and I can’t launch any courses, or do anything like that. So, I thought well, while I was spending lots of time in Bali, I got into going to spas a lot – I used to get all these body treatments; and once I got back to London I would make my own body scrub, out of these recycled coffee grounds from my local café, coconut oil, and a few other secret ingredients. And I was like, right I guess that’s what I would do, these are ingredients that you can have in your kitchen, they are low cost. And, so, I put them together in these beautiful jars, I did very basic branding, I basically went to a stamp place and got them to make a stamp for me with a brand on it, and went to a local market and set up a stall. This is totally, I hardly talk about it is a secret project. [HW: wow]. Yeah, what would you do to make money? I only told my friends about it and a whole bunch of them came along and we were the best-selling stall that day. [HW: laughing] I know! it is crazy right?

HW:      When was this?

MC:     This was in, I should look through my photos I have got it somewhere, this would have been not that long ago actually, two years ago.

HW:      Oh wow.

MC:     I know! And it was super fun. I was so glad I did it without cheating, because I was going to email my whole list and then I was like: ‘don’t tell people’. Just go anonymously, don’t use anything you have done before, and it was so cool, I have to say, I had this table out, this beautiful white table cloth and fairy lights and only one product in three sizes. And I was price testing all day, so switching out prices, I was using all the marketing stuff we do online, but with real people, and a real product. And I have to say I had such a good time. [Both: laughing] And I walked away from that, and people were even signing up to an email list for it, because they loved the product, they were testing it there and then. And they were “oh are you going to make this bigger?” And I said “you know, I could” – it was a great product and I could see how to scale it – but I was like, it is not actually what I really want to do; the point of it was that I want to prove to myself that if push came to shove, there was something else I could start.

HW:      And it was wildly different from everything you had done before.

MC:     Yes! [Laughing]. But, actually, something that takes and I think it is a really cool thing to look at, it takes the same skill sets [HW: yes] I know this sounds a bit weird, like for me, if I am going to launch something new, I know what my strengths are, my strengths are in how something comes across, my strengths are not in creating lots of things, they are in creating one thing and doing it well – so that was in there – and they are in creating a beautiful experience. And, so, I took those three principals and applied that to this and that was all it took.

So yeah, that was like an example of one of the things I did that led to some major changes in how I run my business. But, I think it is something that we can all use as a tool. When there is this thing that we are like: “wait a second, but it’s impossible for me, I will say that it is impossible for me to consider doing anything else because I have gone too far, you know, I am too established in what I do, why would I throw anything away? And, also, there is no option.” Then, really interrogate that, not by sitting and telling yourself it is wrong, but by proving to yourself. Because that if you are as stubborn as I am, [Both: laughing] that is literally the only thing you will listen to is hard evidence, so. [Both: laughing] I hope that makes sense?

HW:      Yeah, it does, it does. And so, coming out of the body scrub episode, coffee episode, [MC: which was great] which sound amazing, how did you then step aside and start what you are doing today – which is more of the higher-level business mentoring?

MC:     Yeah, this was really interesting, so, I have done a lot of…I talk the talk right? I had done all this stuff, but the problem was I had this amazing membership that I was running. And the reason it was amazing was that a) it was beautiful people b) it was great content, it was my gathering of content from five years of work that was in there; and c) it meant that I had to show up once every three months for like a really good income – like, it was the dream membership. And I realised that it was holding me back, and this was killing me. I was going ‘no, no, no, no’ we are not shutting down the membership, that’s stupid; people worked very hard to have this and now it is here, let me outsource this. So, I outsourced them and it was still there, and what I realised was that it was a real energetic drag on me, even though it wasn’t time and I think sometimes we can think “oh but it doesn’t take my time”. But, it doesn’t have to take your time, it can you’re your energy. And, that’s what I realised, I had this beautiful product but it was thing my energy away, because every time I thought I should go and do x, y, z, or I could go and do this other thing with my life, I would think: yes, but what about that. There was a sense that I wasn’t creating, and saying the things I really wanted to say, because in the back of my mind I was afraid of losing my income from that membership. And that is a really hard thing to say in some ways; because we are all like: ‘I speak my truth’ and I do speak my truth, but there are lots of versions of your truth. [HW: yes] And there is no way that your paying product has no impact on that, there is no way. Not how we are as humans, especially if we have a strong survival instinct, which a lot of entrepreneurs do, and of course it impacts. So, towards mid last year I made the choice to shut down my membership, which is insane on the outside. And my members were wonderful, they got it, they really got it, they were so supportive.

I ran one last business programme, and without any fanfare, I didn’t announce any of this to my list, it was just whoever comes across me I will tell them. I pulled down all my membership, I pulled down all my business programmes – the only programme available on Free Range Humans is the 21-day course, which is working out what you want to do with your life if you are not sure what you want to do, and you like everything; that has been up for years and I thought that can stay. But the business only stuff, once you have worked it out, that is all gone for now, and actually, possibly forever actually. I decided to step out of that world, because it wasn’t I can’t describe it, it wasn’t right for me – even though it is one of my zones of genius – still it wasn’t right. So, I shut that down and promptly had a bit of a meltdown. Because I am the sole breadwinner, I have a mortgage, I am single, I don’t have a backup plan, I have savings – because I run my business responsibly for many years – and last year also, what happened last year, I bought my own place in London, purely with the income from my business, like, that’s how I bought it. It was from savings over the years, I had a deposit saved, I had you know enough for a mortgage and so I secured myself a mortgage, which was interesting when you are self-employed, but managed that, and now I have my own little place in London; which is great, but now I have a mortgage. [Laughing]. But I made sure that it wasn’t particularly high, so that I could actually make these changes.

So, I found myself with this situation and I was like: ‘oh my gosh, this feels like exactly how I felt at the beginning of my business, but with one big difference, which is now I can make things happen, because I understand what it takes to make something happen. I understand, I know people now, and I didn’t before. And I was like ‘okay it is like at the beginning of your business again, but it is almost like you get a little bit of a head start in making it work.’ What has happened since then is that – the mentorships I put up which I never really advertised to be honest, I didn’t even have a website on this until a month ago. People through word of mouth, old colleagues, old collaborators, people who have businesses started either buying or recommended it to people, so that started going and I was like, ‘okay that’s nice I haven’t promoted this at all’. A TED talk opportunity came up, which – I turned down two TED talks before – I kept being asked and I was like “yeah I don’t want to talk about it”. Which is probably a sign that you are running the wrong business. And I was like okay, fine, I did that, I did that last week, and the video is coming out soon and if that does well then that will be a whole other adventure.

And all these other collaboration opportunities have come up as well, and so since shutting it down: yes it is really scary having done that, you know I have gone through so many different iterations of what I do. But I also can see that, what I did, and I said this towards the end of my TED talk, when I look at the people in the world who have the biggest success, and really have the biggest flow in what they do at a world level, they have always let go of something. There is no way around this because we are creatures of habit, and cutting the cord sometimes is necessary, however, I am not someone who would cut the cord without having put stuff in place. So, for me, getting a place where I could pay a mortgage that wasn’t you know several thousand a month, meant that I could take some risks. Short term risks, not that risky, because I do have some savings [laughing] but you know risky, for someone as risk averse as me they were pretty risky. But the biggest thing that has come out of it, was the realisation that actually a lot of the issues I had had with my original business was, because, when you are your own brand, your identity gets conflated with your business. If that makes sense? [HW: yep] And that’s the problem with it.

Now I look back at Free Range Humans which is still there, and still has content available, and realise that maybe in six months, or a year, I will go back to it, but treat it like a business, not like a personal brand. You know, really automate the heck out of it, which it hasn’t been, it has been but it could be done, I am so clear on how it could be done better. Really up-level it but treat it like a business. And I think that’s something that we don’t talk about a lot is when – yours is, and everyone’s is online these days – your brand is conflated with your business, there is actually a personal pull towards being more and more of the person that you are kind of meant to be. And for me it actually took really breaking it, because I was so in flow in what I did, that it was like the boat was moving really fast and I had to literally like push it to the floor and get off and take a look at it. And I was like ‘oh the boat is actually all right but I am actually not that person anymore’. [HW: yeah]

So, yeah, that is a very sort of long story version but I think it is really important, because there is no, I see this a lot in the online world and behind the scenes, we talk about getting to a certain place, but I don’t really think that that is a true thing, because what’s more important is the feeling that we have, while we are there. And you know this isn’t to say don’t grow your business, I think if you are here and you are in business, you should keep doing what you are doing; like that’s great, or switching it up so that it is something that you love, or whatever it is. To me the story, I have just told, is actually about awareness. [HW: yes, yes] That’s all it is.

HW:      So, what are your tips for someone who is not feeling quite right in their business anymore but they are at that place where they are not quite sure what to do? What would you recommend?

MC:     Mm I think I would sit down, take some time away – from where you normally work and hang out- I actually went to a park to do this, and really take a look at: firstly, what it is that you are feeling about what you do and notice anywhere you are saying ‘should’. So, the should could look like ‘oh I should like this because of these reasons’. Or, could: that could work if’. The second thing I would say is look for a sense of tightness, like physical tightness, just notice it and note at every point. And the third thing is while you are noticing this, and you are saying what is going on with my business, and I feel really tight when I am saying this and I am saying should and could here, where are you saying the word ‘impossible’? ‘It is impossible for someone like me to…’ That is going to be your gateway to stuck-ness or freedom, that is your gateway to stuck-ness or freedom, without a doubt. Because I can’t count of number of people I know who have successful online businesses who I have spoken to in private about this, what I talk to you about here, who have said to me ‘but it is impossible for someone like me to x, y, z’ and I tell them the story and they would be like ‘oh, but people like us don’t do that’. Like, I have had three people – no joke- with very prominent online brands saying that to me, and I was like ‘Well, I that is what freedom looks like, that’s not something I want to sign up for’. [HW:; yeah] Because suddenly we turn into that ‘that’s not what people like us do’. I am like ‘WHAT?’ ‘what is this?’ [Laughing]. So just look at it really carefully and just ask yourself, because you don’t need to, these changes I made didn’t come overnight, they came over a period of years. [HW: yeah] And you get to choose. Even if you open a gateway, it doesn’t mean that you have to step through it fully. You might say: ‘you know what, I could see a big change over there, it is just way too big for me to contemplate now, so what I am going to do is take a little step towards it.’ And I actually am a big believer in taking these little steps, so for me my first step towards the changes I was making, was slowing down my love letter, doing it less than once a week; and then it was stopping it, then it was you know, making another change. It was only like several years later, that I was: ‘I am really ready, I have got myself in a position where I can make a change now’, then do it. But then I would say, what you don’t do is sit there and say: ‘I have created a box for myself’. And, also, I would also suggest that you don’t look at what you think you are allowed to do, or have a sense of ‘oh god what will people think of me’. Because, what I have discovered is that people don’t think about you very much. [laughing]

HW:      [Laughing] No they probably don’t!

MC:     It is really going to be fine in the end!

So, yeah, so that’s what I have got, you know, I hope this is helpful because it is the… I am really grateful – and this probably hasn’t come across – in everything has worked in what I’ve done and I have had a really great time doing it, and I still am having a great time. It is just that, when we talk about, when we talk a lot about up-levelling what we do, and stepping into our next big thing. And sometimes I think, instead of looking up, we need to look deep. [HW: yes]. And, that’s maybe your next step. For some people listening by the way, this won’t be appropriate – there are different stages and different seasons we are all in – and maybe your next big step is up, maybe you do need to be expanding. But I would say, for a lot of people who are listening, maybe your next big step is deeper, not higher. And if we don’t have our roots in the ground, almost like if you want a tree to grow tall its roots have to be in the ground. And that to me, what I have just talked about was that, I need to re-root before I could go high and feel stable doing so. And that’s where I am feeling now, I am feeling really rooted in and ready to kind of move up again.

HW:      And sometimes I think the easiest way to move up is to go deep first of all.

MC:     Yes, I agree. It sounds counter-intuitive, doesn’t it? But, actually, it is exactly right I agree with you.

HW:      It just helps you get back into the core of yourself and who you are and what the heck you are doing this for, and what you are meant to be doing and what you want to be doing and then from there you can move up more quickly and easily, I think, than if you were doing just pushing pushing, pushing; hustling, hustling, hustling.

MC:     Yes. I absolutely agree with that.

HW:      So, Marianne, are there any other online business people that you see doing exciting things that you kind of like to connect with, or follow, or that you have learned things from on this journey?

MC:     No. [HW: laughing] And I don’t mean that in a bad way – the reason that I say no very clearly is: I basically unfollowed everyone, very consciously and there is a reason for that, not because the work is bad, that was not what I was wanting to come across as, one bit. [HW: laughing] I think there are a lot of people doing great stuff, and I would name them but they are more specific to me, if that make sense. I happen to be attracted to someone because they are doing something on Instagram that I am interested in, it is not because I think that everyone needs it.

The reason I say no is that I realised that one of the most powerful things that you can do, is to get input from varied sources and that my sources were too narrow. So, what I have done, I talk about it in my TED talk as well, is I read, really, widely; I read a lot of books, but I read them on different topics; I read deeply on psychology, on economics, on political theory; I read anthropology, a lot of literature, and all of that actually informs through its themes and patterns, informs the work that I do.

Yeah, it is a thing I want to talk about a lot more is the idea that actually I we live in a silo and that is our only input we close off to what other possibilities are out there. And the greatest innovation in the world, comes from taking ideas from one other sphere and putting it into yours. So, for that reason, a few months back, I really closed down a lot of influences, and I now let people in selectively. As I say, I want someone on Instagram, I will pick the person who is doing that thing, and if want something on something else, I will pick that person and I will bring them back in one by one. So, I would say, yeah, if you look at my book shelf, that would be a great example. But if you want people who inspire me at the moment I think Elizabeth Gilbert, I think the work she is doing is incredibly inspiring. Who else am I reading? You know, that sort of person I think who has made some big changes in their life, and is really rooted in their own truth, but doesn’t kind of let being a thinking and reflective person stop them from moving forward. They are the people that we want to surround ourselves with when we need to make those sort of changes.

HW:      Mm excellent, so, where can listeners find you online?

MC:     They can go to MarianneCantwell.com which is where I am hanging out at the moment; or pick me up @FreeRangeMarianne on Instagram; or @freerangehumans on Twitter.

HW:      Excellent. And what’s your favourite social network right now?

MC:     Oh, my god all of them! [HW: laughing] I would say a combination of – Facebook has been my little home, so I’m Marianne Cantwell on Facebook as well, which is a new page that I have set up, so it is quite little at the moment. But, actually, I am having a lot of fun on Instagram, loads of fun, I am not usually active – I don’t post everyday – but, it is a really relaxing hangout, put it that way.

HW:      Yeah, I love Instagram; and I don’t use it so much for business marketing side of things and promoting my stuff, it is more like, I go on a walk, I take pictures of my walk, I take pictures of my cats, it is kind of like the personal side of me.

MC:     That’s exactly how I feel about Instagram. I love all three they are my three social networks, I use them for different purposes. So, whatever your favourite is, come say hello on one of those.

HW:      Excellent, well thank you so much for joining us today and telling us kind of your updates since the last time we spoke.

MC:     Thank you so much it has been a pleasure being here again.

HW:      Thank you. And thank you for listening and remember to go to https://www.hollyworton.com/196 for the show notes on this episode. Thank you.