Today’s Guest

About Jo Casey

Jo Casey has over 20 years experience of working as a trainer and consultant in the corporate, public and third sectors. Her flashy clients and workplaces have included Pricewaterhouse Coopers (PWC), The NHS, BT, Toyota Motors, Peugeot Business School, The Welsh Assembly Government, The Girl Guides UK, Vets4Pets/Companion Care, several Local Government Authorities, and The Department Of Work And Pensions. But she’s also worked with many no less wonderful smaller ventures, micro businesses and SMEs.

She’s a self-confessed nerd and has taught at college and university levels and is a visiting lecturer at the University of Chester. Jo has a Masters Degree in Coaching and Organizational Development and she’s an NLP Master Practitioner, MBTI qualified professional certified Emotional Intelligence EQi 2.0 consultant.

She’s been coaching for over 15 years now – clocking up over 1000 hours of coaching experience. Basically, she carefully treads that line between being passionate and a tiny bit obsessive about what she does (obsession often wins). Jo runs accredited coach training programs and coaches people from all over the world via the power of the internet.

Listen to this episode

  

What You’ll Learn

• What is transparency and how it shows up in business
• Why transparency is important in business
• What lack of transparency looks like
• How you can be more transparent in business
• How to know when you’re being transparent and when you aren’t

Things We Discussed

• Reinventing the Online Summit: 

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Related episodes

• 238 Jo Casey + Holly ~ How to Find a Business Model That Works for You
• BMP189 Rosie Slosek ~ How to Know When It’s Time to Set Up a Limited Company or LLC
• BMP151 Jo + Holly ~ Our Top 10 Life-Changing Business Books for Solopreneurs

Transcript

The transcript for this episode can also be downloaded here (no opt-in required).

Holly: Hello and welcome to the Business Mindset Podcast, episode 233. This is your host Holly Worton and I am back with another co-hosted episode with the fabulous Jo Casey. Today we talk about transparency in business, you know what I mean: being open and clear with no manipulative hidden agenda lurking around in your business copy, on your website, in your sales conversations, in your business. Unfortunately, there are plenty of business owners out there who still operate from a place of manipulation and lack of transparency. So, today, Jo and I talk about specific instances in which we are tired in seeing this lack of transparency; we talk about what transparency is, how it shows up in business; why it is so important in business, what lack of transparency looks like; again, showing specific incidents that have occurred recently in our business transactions with other people. We talk about how you can be more transparent in business and how to know when you are being transparent and when you aren’t. So, I hope you find this really interesting, I have been thinking about this topic and actually almost did this topic on my own yesterday, when I was recording the previous episode that I did on my own. But, I thought: no, no, this is a juicy topic, I am going to save this to talk with Jo, and happily she agreed. So, hope you find this episode interesting and useful, I really think this is a really important topic and it is something that we need to keep in mind as we are running our businesses. So, without further ado, here we are.

Holly: Hello, this is Holly Worton and I am back with Jo Casey for another co-hosted episode. I am so excited for the topic that we are talking about today; we will be talking about transparency and how transparency is so important in business. So, we are going to talk about some specific areas in business, where we see people not being transparent, why that’s not such a great thing for your business and what to do instead, how you can be transparent. So, hello Jo. I am so excited for today.

Jo: I am excited about today, we quite often just check out: are we still okay to talk about this? And then we kind of pull all our points together and this is one of those, there is …well, we have a lot to say on this.

Holly: Yes. So, maybe we should start by saying: what is transparency? So, what do you see as the definition of transparency in business or in general?

Jo: I think, certainly for business, it is about showing… that kind of being upfront, treating people like adults and laying out the real picture and the real situation, the real transaction. So, one of the things that we talked about in our preamble was the ways that some things just hit us the wrong way and can seem really ‘off’. A lot of that is because some part of the transaction is hidden, until a certain point. And that is well dodgy, and also, I think people are getting a lot more wise to it. So, transparency touches on a number of things, it is about showing all of the relevant information, I think, and all of the relevant parts; rather than keeping some of them secret and then revealing them at the end, or just keeping them secret and it being a kind of… fraud, is probably too strong a word, but definitely a kind of: I’m not sure I trust this because that’s clearly not the full picture I am seeing.

Holly: To me transparency is a lack of that hidden agenda, or manipulative element that you get from withholding information. And it is annoying, and it makes me lose trust in people.

Jo: In a really fast way of losing people’s trust

Holly: Exactly, and I think people are getting wise to that. So, why is transparency so important in business?

Jo: Well because, especially if you are a, I was going to say especially if you are a service-based business, but that’s not true, I think any business, I think trust is one of the most valuable currencies. If I lose trust in an organisation – or if I lose trust in a person – then I am not willing to give them my investment whether that be financial investment, certainly not time and emotional investment. And especially with the clients that we work with, and the folks who listen to this podcast, do you know what? We are healers, we are coaches, we are heart-based entrepreneurs; and, it is all relationship-based. And so those relationships have to be formed on a bedrock of trust. And, if you don’t have that, then you are screwed basically.

Holly: Yes, if I don’t trust someone, I am not going to want to hire them as a coach or buy their product or…because it might be a waste of time and money, because I can’t trust them.

Jo: And I am not going to recommend that person.

Holly: I might even actively not recommend them.

Jo: Yes, absolutely, what’s that old adage we used to use in customer service, in the days when I did retail: ‘a happy customer will tell one other person, an unhappy customer will tell ten.’ And what amazes me is just how many of the kind of dinosaur marketers, because I do think it is that old school marketing that is now on its way out, how many of them have been playing roughshod with people’s trust.

Holly: Yes, exactly.

Jo: It has almost been manipulation, influence – as it has sometimes been euphemistically called – has been the norm which they have used without any compulsion, and I think people are now wise to it, I think that, that style of marketing really is on the way out.

Holly: Thankfully, finally. It is like it breaks that sense of connection that you might feel with someone, through reading their website, or their blogpost, or their sales page, or whatever. It just kind of damages the relationship, or the potential relationship. So, I think it is worth us talking about a little bit about some instances of what does lack of transparency look like in business; what are the kind of things that people need to look out for, and think about, when they are running their business?

Jo: You had a good example before.

Holly: Yeah, I have got a couple. Recently I was invited to participate with a chapter in a book. I have done this a couple of times before, and so I thought: this is great, I love this, this is a fun project, it sounded really interesting. So, I got an email saying: I would love to have you participate with a chapter in this book, on this particular topic, if that sounds interestIng please book in a time to have a little chat about it. So, I thought, great, book in the time. After that, she comes back with another email with a link to learn more about the project. I click on the link and I immediately see that it’s: you’ve got this investment of I don’t know $400 or so, to participate a chapter in this book. And I just thought: no, why did you not tell me that from the beginning, I do not like that. So, I cancelled the call, wrote back to her and said: thanks so much but after looking at that link it is not a good fit. She came back and said: why is it not a good fit, out of curiosity? And I said: I really did not like that you were not upfront at the beginning that there is an investment in this, this is not an invitation to participate in a book, it is an invitation to pay you. And, of course I understand that there are costs in producing a book, but I did not like the fact that she was not upfront with that in the very first email. And she was kind of surprised by that, which I found interesting; I was really, really, annoyed by it. It sounded like such a great project and I thought: ugh I just lost all interest the second I saw that there was a cost, and that she hadn’t been upfront about that.

Jo: Yeah, that sucks. I was going to say that I am surprised that she was surprised but actually I am not. When you think about the way a lot of the MLM organisations work, I am sure that I have shared this story before, a friend of mine who I had done some training with, but I hadn’t seen for a few years, I bumped into her at another event, and I said: what are you doing? She was doing a…it was a kind of MLM thing, but I had never heard of them. And I was just making conversation, and asking about it, and she said: well, why don’t you come along? We are having a meeting not far from you, because I lived about 50 miles away from where this event was. Well, we are actually doing one about 5 miles away from where you live, it was in my town, and you will get to see…she mentioned a couple of other people who I met at different events who I was also really fond of and hadn’t seen for ages. And I thought: oh, how lovely. And in my mind, I thought: they are having a meeting there are going to be just a few of them, I am going to meet them for a cup of tea or coffee or something. And I turn up it is a hotel and I thought: perhaps having tea in a hotel, not a problem. And it was this big event for this MLM company and it was like 3-hours long and I sat there, and I went through, I think, every emotion in the book, none of them good. And I think I was shocked and a bit bewildered, and then I was really angry, and then I felt really sad because I felt stupid for the fact that I had thought you were my friend and you wanted to meet up. And then I got annoyed again…

Holly: Yeah, yeah.

Jo: You know, they may have been the greatest products in the world, but I was never going to buy from that company. It just felt deceitful and manipulative and horrible. I really didn’t like it.

Holly: And that’s what they teach; I am embarrassed to say that I briefly attempted an MLM thing when I was training as a coach. Back when I was training as a coach, I tried the products, loved them and thought: this is the kind of product I would rave about to people anyway, because I just think they are so great; so, why not get a referral commission for it? But, I couldn’t do it, and my upline manager was just so aggressive, and she made a living out of this. She was able to help her husband quit his job, they were just living off her income, because she was making so much money from this, then he decided to do it, so they were making more money… It was working for her, but the style was not working for me. And the way she taught me to book these calls with people was: do not give them any information, just tell them: let’s catch up, I have this really great thing I am doing, I would love to chat. And I hated it (oh God my stomach just turned) and I am so embarrassed to say that I booked some calls with people. And they were very kind, and polite, but I just hated the fact that I had manipulated them into having a meeting and talking, and it was so awful, I am so glad that I got out of that as soon as I did.The whole style felt awful, because if you are just recommending products to people, I can do that because I love recommending stuff that I love, but the way they go about it and the way they teach you, is just so non-transparent and manipulative.

Jo: Yeah, there is a style of that in the online marketing world as well. The book invitation is one example; there is also the way that sales calls are quite often taught. You get people onto, ‘just a 30-minute chat to see how I can help you’, and it 30 minutes of hard sell and if you say that it is going to be a 30-minute chat and it is going to be an intake call or it is going to be free call, then make it be a free call. That is another thing that is taught to folk. I think the other thing, apart from the fact that it is really icky, and really manipulative, I think people are really getting wise to it now.

Holly: Yes. It is not working, and it is annoying people, because there are enough people who have done things in a different way; who can be open and transparent and still make their business work. And we are seeing that there is another way and we don’t have to fall prey to these manipulative marketing techniques any more. So, what were some other things in business that annoy you, I know you were talking before we got on the recording you mentioned webinars, which I think is the big, big thing.

Jo: You and I, because I have run webinars with you, I have attended your webinars, we sweat blood over our webinars {laughing} and yet the number of hours that I have wasted in my life showing up for this webinar that is promised (not one of yours obviously) they have promised to teach me x, y, z and the new way of blah, blah, blah. And there is a formula that some of them follow, which is: ‘20 minutes about me, my rags to riches story’; and ‘how I was broke and now I am wildly successful just using this system’. 10 minutes of a very high overview of something generic or, ‘this is why my system is so great’. 20 minutes of case-studies, and then 10-15 minutes of hard-pitching usually with an early sign up bonus, sign-up now, if you do it in the next 10 minutes, the first 10 people who sign up. And it has been like: I have learnt nothing from that. I am waiting for these nuggets that will teach me to do something. I just, I hate them. And again, I think it is one of those that just aren’t working in anything like the same way that they were, they are not converting in the same way they were. I have actually seen a number of people who I really respect and who I know do really kind of quality stuff, move over to doing a masterclass model where they will charge, anything from $35 to $100, depending on the length of the class and it is a proper class you are paying for.

Holly: And you are actually learning stuff that you can implement and use.

Jo: Exactly, exactly. And, actually, I prefer that. I prefer to think: okay, I am paying my $30, or my $100, and I know I am getting solid stuff that I can use. And it is not going to be a waste of our time, because our time is increasingly precious to us. You are not going to get that hour back.

Holly: And I love the concept of paying for a masterclass, or an online training like that, because if I am paying money I am going to trust that I am actually going to get a useful, interesting, applicable, information that can help me with my business or whatever the topic is on and it is going to be a good investment of my time. I feel like that fee is more of a guarantee of actually receiving some kind of substance, so I think that is actually a really, really, good tactic.

Jo: Yeah, and it makes a much more, I think, adult-to-adult transaction. It is like: I am going to pay you some money for the time you have invested putting this together, and for your knowledge, and what you are going to impart to me. Whereas if it is free then where is the benefit to you, the person running the webinar, the only benefit to you is getting my email address or selling me something.

Holly: Yeah.

Jo: Which is fine if folks are upfront about that. And very often they are not, and that’s what becomes really frustrating. A lot of the teachers who teach around this area will talk about… will tell them the what but not the how.

Holly: Yes!

Jo: I haven’t got the time for you to give me the overview of your system, I want to know what it is and how I can use it; and I am actually willing to exchange something for that, because that’s of value, but don’t kind of dress it up as it is going to be valuable, when actually you and I both know that this is isn’t.

Holly: Exactly, it is like an extended sales pitch with an overview of information that might be useful for someone who has never run a business, and they are on day-one of their business, but for someone who actually needs information it is not going to help.

Jo: Yeah exactly. And the other thing (I am on a roll here) about transparency which I think, rather than a tactic is more of a general thing, is people who show up as perfect.

Holly: Yes!

Jo: And I don’t mean you share every trauma that you are going through, I mean I am actually, and you are as well, pretty private in terms of sharing stuff going on in our private lives, I don’t kind of talk about: I had a row with my husband, or anything like that; but I do talk a lot about the challenges that I have in my business. I will always…certainly my intention is to give a much more rounded view of the reality of running a business and some of the pluses, and some of the downsides. But the thing is, if I see somebody like… like a Tony Robbins, he is all teeth with the body, and the ‘there is no fear…’. And you see so many people who have kind of modelled that style, and you see all of these pictures of them on the beach, or at the beach house, or at the swimming pool…Or, ‘hey look at me I’m in Malibu; and here is my beautiful wife, and here are my beautiful children; and here is my Ferrari and here is my yacht…’ and all of that stuff. And that either says to me: you have never experienced any hardship in your life, or any self-doubt, in which case I think you are a cyborg, and that’s not real. Or, you are so un-self-aware; or you are hiding a lot of the reality, because as humans nobody gets a free ride, nobody is just problem free, challenge free, mentally 100% fit all of the time. And so, for me that says two things, either: I can’t trust you because you are hiding your dark side. Or, I can’t trust that you would know how to help me with my challenges, because if you have not had any yourself, if you have not actually been down in the dirt how can you show me how to dig.

Holly: Exactly. Yeah and there is no such thing as perfectionism, perfectionism isn’t real, and it is so hard to relate to those people and that goes back to that trust, and connection, and authenticity; and relationship building. You can’t do that with someone who is pretending to be perfect. You just can’t form that deep connection and I just wouldn’t want to work with someone who doesn’t seem real.

Jo: No, because are they going to be judging me if they really are perfect and do have everything figured out; then how can they be compassionate to messed up, still rough around the edges me…how can they do that? I think it is hard to have compassion, it is hard to feel that you won’t be judged and found wanting; and that is a big thing that goes through the personal development industry, that really gets on my wick. It is this kind of peak performance, and all of that, it is exhausting. It is like those people that you know are going through a really, really, tough time and you will say: how are you? And they will say: I’m fine, I’m absolutely fine, things are great; how are you? And it’s like: come on, they are not fine, you have got some stuff going on and it understandable that you wouldn’t be fine. [And they say]: no, I’m absolutely fine, I am just staying positive, and it will all be great. And it’s not healthy apart from anything.

Holly: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Now, transparency sometimes shows up in much smaller ways, kind of in the detail. So, it could be something as small as on a sales page they don’t actually say what the price is, you have to click on the: ‘yes, I am ready to buy now’ before you can actually see how much the thing is, which I find annoying.

Jo: Yeah, because there seems to be a thing of…maybe it is just the ones that I have noticed recently, but, the only way that you find out the price is to click on the: ‘yes, I am interested’ or the ‘buy now’. And it takes you right through to the PayPal transaction page, which even if it was a product, where I am like: yeah, okay, that’s reasonable; that’s so presumptuous, don’t treat me like a child, I want to know the investment because I am grownup woman and I need to know that.

Holly: And I have a budget {laughing}. I have a budget for training, I have a budget for coaching, I have a budget for marketing, I am like: you know, I know how much I am willing to spend on things like this.

Jo: Exactly!

Holly: And, I also have a really big problem, and I know this is a strategic thing, and I know a lot of people stand by this, but I can’t stand when people don’t put the prices on their website.

Jo: This has been a real journey for me, I have to say. Because I was all about putting the prices on. And then, a couple of years ago, when I drank my kool aid and went and signed up with the big coach and followed all of her tactics, and took my prices off my website. And, I will be honest with you, I did get more people sign up for intake calls, but I also got a lot more no’s, because…and it just felt all kinds of wrong. And I have put my prices, my prices are now on my website, I am all about that. It does mean that I get less intake calls, and less interest, but those who do come on the call are much more likely to be able to make an informed decision.

However, I have a couple of friends who are really filled with integrity, are really fantastic coaches, who don’t put their prices on their website and here is what they would say about it. So, one of my friends is a wonderful coach who does really quite kind of deep work with people, she is a coach, and she is a counsellor, so it is quite kind of deep, therapeutic stuff that she does with folks. And what she was saying is that, if she puts her prices on her website, the folks that she works with are desperately in need of help but really struggle to value themselves enough, and to be courageous enough, to take that step to start on their healing journey. And what she was saying, what she found, is that having the investment on her website was a barrier to them getting on the call. Once she had got them on the call, she was then able to explore all the options for them, and then they could still make an informed decision, once they had all the information, including the investment. So, she certainly doesn’t do the hard sell on a call but, for her, what she was saying was: I just know my people, they will use whatever they can as an excuse not to take this step, because it is a big leap of courage for them. And I thought that was a really beautiful reframe that I had not really thought about. So, I know her, and I know that she is not doing it from a manipulative place, she is doing it from a real place of love and that did change my view on it a little bit.

Holly: Yeah, I have definitely heard that perspective. I was also talking once with a friend who does hypnotherapy work, and we were doing a webinar together and someone asked about prices on the website, and she and I had very, very, different opinions, so it was great to share those two perspectives on the call. But, she said: the kind of work that she does, there are so many people doing it, that people will go online and look for the lowest price, rather than seeing who is the best person for them, or who they connect with, or that kind of thing. Because it is such kind of a common topic and service to deal with, so people google looking for the lowest price. So, yeah, I get that, from a consumer perspective, I would not write to someone if I didn’t know what at least the range of prices were, I don’t know. I would just click away and not work with them, but I may be an odd one on that.

Jo: Me neither, I wouldn’t, and I would also be super-nervous having a conversation with somebody until they told me their price. I think there is also an element of money shame as well. And so, I would, it is kind of one of my worst nightmares, you get on the call and they tell me a price and that’s way out of my budget, and now I am having to say: that’s way out of my budget; and I am carrying all this shame around it. When I was going through the phase where I didn’t have the prices on my website, I did have an intake call with somebody and I told her price and she went: ah what? It was such an awful moment, it was horrible. I felt like I had put her in this really embarrassing position, because the price was way out of what she was expecting. She had no clue what coaching costs, she was super-embarrassed; and I felt so bad and that was a real turning point for me. I never want somebody to be in that position again when they are, they are just backing out of the call because…it is horrible, I still kind of get that kind of ugh feeling when I think about it now.

Holly: Yes, and it is also, I feel like I don’t want to sign up for a discovery call with someone just to find out their prices, because I don’t want to waste their time and I don’t want to waste my time…I just want to know, just tell me.

Jo: I’m an adult I can make a decision based on a number of factors {laughing} including the price.

Holly: Another thing we were talking about in terms of lack of transparency is people trying to sell you on their ‘secrets’. ‘The seven secrets to getting a steady stream of clients…’ The seven whatever… there are no secrets! Whatever thing you are selling as a secret I am sure that there is someone else, on the other side of the planet, teaching the same thing in slightly different words. You are not that unique.

Jo: Yeah, this isn’t a cutting-edge surgery that we are doing {laughing} this is not some NASA invention; this is pretty standard, usually kind of stuff that there are any number of people doing. There are no secrets, if there were, they wouldn’t be charging 9.99, or 19.99 or whatever it is. There just aren’t, but this idea of: I have the secret and I am not going to give it to you unless you…The whole thing is just kind of ugh.

Holly: Yes, it’s that gatekeeper thing, I have a secret and I am going to keep it to myself, and I am going to hold on tight until you give me x amount of money, and then I will give it to you.

Jo: Yes, it’s the worst. Actually, one of my friends, Max Daniels, she is a fantastic coach who helps people around compulsive eating, get over compulsive eating; she is so transparent, as part of her email sequence, when you sign up with her, she tells you her exact process. She gives you a list of the books, where her methodology comes from and she says: you can totally do this on your own, but it is way easier if you hire me.

Holly: Yeah.

Jo: And it makes me kind of love her all the more, she is doing really well because we have said this so many times, it is not information that we need, it is people holding space and accountability and showing the energy for us, and sometimes channeling stuff and giving different perspectives, it is not some big dollop of information that someone can bestow on you.

Holly: Mm, yeah, and I like what you said about people saying: you can do this on your own, but it will be faster and easier if you work with someone else. And that’s something that I always say as well with the mindset work, you can absolutely train in something that will help you reprogram your beliefs and do it on your own. I do a ton of work on my own. But I also work with other people because it helps me see stuff that I can’t see. So, I think that’s a very different side of the coin from, ‘I have the secret’. It is: you can do this too, but it is going to take you a while longer.

Jo: It is the difference between: do you come at your work from the place of: people are broken, and I will help fix them; or: you are whole, and I can help you to…

Holly: Boost you up a little bit!

Jo: Exactly. It is one of those fundamental things about: what is your belief system around the healing work that you do, the helping people that you do. And, what really pisses me of is the arrogance of the people who are: well, you are broken, and I have what you need to fix you. In my world, nobody is broken.

Holly: Yeah, I agree, I agree.

Jo: We are all as broken as one another, we are all whole and some things make our journey on this planet that bit easier. And there are huge amounts of growth that we can do, and we can do it on our own time, and sometimes we need a teacher or a healer to help us along; and sometimes it is time for us to walk that path alone. And you know we are all independent beings and we can do that. We have choices, we are not children, we are adults and so much of the marketing stuff out there is around treating people, approaching them as children.

Holly: Yes. Rather than approaching them as equals. I think that’s such a good point.

Jo: So, you had Stella Orange on your podcast not long ago, and I love Stella’s work and I love that she talks about: ‘the hero’s journey’.

Holly: Yes, yes, yes, I love that.

Jo: The idea that each of us, each of your potential clients are on their own hero’s journey, they are the hero of this story. You can maybe be the {laughing}…

Holly: You are the supporting person.

Jo: You can meet along the way you can say: yes, I have walked this path through the forest before, let me show you… Or maybe you can help them put together a bag of medicine or something, but ultimately, they are the hero of their own story.

Holly: Yeah.

Jo: That’s such a nicer, more empowering, respectful way of approaching all this, rather than: you’re broken.

Holly: I am going fix you, I have the power.

Jo: I am the guru.

Holly: Ooh I don’t like that.

Jo: {laughing} You don’t fancy being a guru?

Holly: No, no I don’t.

Jo: No, me either. I would be a rubbish guru! {laughing}

Holly: Yes…oh my god. So, the other thing that has annoyed me about lack of transparency recently was this thinly disguised tele-summit invitation that I received by someone who is putting together, ‘an interview series and gift giveaway’. And it sounded really interesting, I was like: great, I have never heard of this woman before, it will be really nice to connect with someone new, sounds like fun… And then I get to the point where she says: the interviews are 30 minutes and each featured will share the event with their email list of 5000 plus; creating a promotional audience of 100,000 plus. And that was when I was like: oh crap, it is a tele-summit and I have to fulfil certain requirements with my list, and you know send a bunch of crap out to my poor list. And that was when I wrote back and said: sorry, it is not a good fit. But, I was just so disappointed, because it is like, you know, if you think I am interesting enough to have on your thing then just invite me, you know! Although I understand that’s not the way tele-summits work, the whole point is to get people on your list, so you need people with a big list. Like: ugh

Jo: [pause] Sorry, I accidentally muted myself because my dog had come in… Yeah, I hate that kind of tele-summit thing; and I couldn’t quite put my finger on what I hated so much about it apart from the fact that even just inherent in that is: I am only going to be your friend if you have enough friends that it makes it worth my while. And it is not fair, if actually you do genuinely love my work and think it is so important (because they always write you this biging you up email about how amazing you are!) then surely it is irrelevant how big my email list is.

Holly: Exactly, and she starts out this email saying: I recently came across your mindset alchemy, and I love your message; I realise that we don’t know each other but I feel very aligned with your message. If you very aligned with my message, why does it matter how many people are on my list? When I interview people for my podcast I don’t say: how many people are on your list? How many people… If I like someone, they are on. It is about connection to me, it is not about how many friends do you have? Are you the cool kid of the block…?

Jo: Yeah, it just sucks, and have you ever had it when you have agreed to partake in the tele-summit and then they send you these kind of hassling emails: I am monitoring your list and you have only sent it out one time, and it is like…agh this is like I work for you now. I don’t want to be sending stuff out to my list – to my community – unless I know that it is going to be of value to them. And so, there are so many variables in that, how do I know who else you are going to have in the summit? Is it going to be an actual useful summit, or is it just going to be a string of what could have been podcast interviews strung together?

Kelly Diels, who I have worked with a fair bit in the past year has a fantastic…it is an interview that she did with someone called Dawn Serra, who has kind of reinvented the tele-summit, we can link to that in the show notes. And she basically lays out what is so messed up about the existing tele-summit model, it is very transactional, the content is usually pretty crappy; it is all designed just as a list-building exercise for the host. The emphasis is not on providing value for the participants, very often, but just: how quickly can I build my list? And that’s how it is presented as a tactic to a lot of entrepreneurs. And what Dawn has done, and she has kind of redesigned that model in a really, beautiful, aligned, way which is all about, the first thing is: what kind of experience do you want to create for your participants? And you build out from there. She is a fan of, if at all possible, you pay your speakers; rather than it just being quite shallow interviews do something more in depth; a mixture of kind of classes; or you know just content that people won’t be able to get anywhere else. It is a community experience, each day there are workbooks, and there are Q and A sessions on the days that it is broadcast. And there is no requirement for people to share with their list, there is also no requirement for a list of a certain size.

But, what she says is because the quality and everything is so good, and it is so different from the traditional tele-summit model, that actually most people are more than happy to promote it; because it is a quality thing that they are part of. And I think that is far more congruent with the way that we want to be changing this online world, moving away from: this is transactional, what can I get out of it? And, actually, putting the users at the forefront, the clients at the forefront, at the centre of it.

Holly: Yeah and making it more of a collaboration: let’s get together and do this thing and see how we can help each other. So, how do you think entrepreneurs can be aware of their level of transparency in business and how can we be more transparent in our business?

Jo: I think there is a lot to be said for honesty, and we talked about authenticity a lot in the past and I think that is always going to be a bit of a moveable feast, and it is going to be dependent on your level of what feels appropriate for you. So, I know there are some people who are literally naked on the Internet; I can’t remember who, Mxxx who sends out pictures of herself basically naked, very tasteful…but woah that’s way too much transparency and authenticity for me. {Holly: laughing}

My approach to transparency is: if something has gone wrong I apologise, and I explain; I try and be very upfront about the good and the bad; I talk regularly about how I still get scared regularly, I still cry on a regular basis. Things will go wrong, there are challenges, and these are the things that I do to help me through that, like having community around me; like getting a dog, because I was turning into a hermit and just sat at my desk all day. Just being a lot more kind of realistic about what it is like; and my experience, and also where my knowledge-base comes from, and where my opinions come from; and what is the legacy that I am standing on, what informs my work; what are my values, what are my beliefs. Because then I think that there is also something that is told a lot to people: don’t talk politics or religion and don’t reveal too much about yourself because that’s going to be a turnoff for a lot of people. I say fine, because I know I do really good work with people who are aligned with me, and I do really crappy work with people who aren’t.

Holly: Yeah.

Jo: And so, I would sooner show people the pertinent bits of who I am, so they can, again, make an informed decision and if it’s not for them then that’s fine, because they are not children, they don’t have to be persuaded, or cajoled, or some kind of switch…I don’t want to work on that basis, I want to show the pertinent, important bits of me. If you want someone who is super into systems, is really, really, organised, is positive every day, you are probably not going to enjoy working with me! {Both: laughing} If you want someone who has a bit of a sarcastic sense of humour, who laughs a lot at her own mistakes, who is really good at getting creative in the moment, and strategy, and talking big ideas and how we can channel our own kind of personal essence and values into our businesses, and build businesses that are really super-aligned, if maybe not always that shiny, I am your gal, that’s my jam.

But if you don’t tell people, you don’t show people who you are, they can’t make a decision on that, so that’s one of the things that I have become more and more committed to over the years. I am going to show you who I am and what’s important to me; I tell you what my values are on my website. Video I think is good in terms of being able to let people see you sharing your opinions but also things like, saying if this isn’t for you if…; here is the cost to work with me, this is what is involved, this is what you get. One of the things I have also been much more conscious of in the past six-to-twelve months is being much clearer on my boundaries.

Holly: Yes.

Jo: Going back to an earlier podcast that we had…

Holly: I was just going to say…

Jo: Which makes things a hell of a lot easier.

Holly: And the more transparent you are about your boundaries, the more effective they are and the easier it is to form a clear relationship with people.

Jo: Yeah, not overselling, but at the same time not underselling either. Having a solid sense of: yeah, this is my zone of genius, this is what I love to help people with and this is the stuff that, yeah, I recommend you went to someone else if that’s what you want.

Holly: Yes, exactly, exactly.

Jo: How about you?

Holly: I think that’s also really important, I think, as you said I am not the kind of person who lays it all out there; but I am not the kind of person who pretends to be perfect. And I think that the more I can share about myself with people, the better and easier it is for them to make an educated decision about whether or not they want to work with me. I would not want someone to sign up with me and then be like: woah that wasn’t what I expected, I thought she was someone else. Because that also feels very manipulative, withholding parts of yourself, withholding sides of yourself, or facets of yourself, so that you can appeal to a wider audience. Yeah, that wouldn’t feel good for me.

Jo: No. And I think it always comes out as well. It just leaks out.

Holly: Yeah! So, how can we know if we are actually being transparent? Maybe sometimes we think we are being transparent and we are not. Or, how can we know that?

Jo: I go back to that, for me I am very kinaesthetic, a lot of it’s very body-based, so if something is feeling off in my body, it tends to almost be like a line through my torso, that’s a sign that something is off. I don’t know for me it is an instinctive thing and it is also an evolution. I have a real sort of visceral, physical response to when I am not being in integrity, or not feeling in alignment, it feels icky, it feels unsettled in my body. And so that has become a compass that I have paid attention to more and more.

Holly: So, for me, when I asked you that question, my mind instantly went back to that horrible MLM crappy situation that I was in many years ago – when was this? When I was training as a coach, many years ago. And just feeling like, she was telling me what I needed to do when I was making the calls, and I just felt awful in my gut, I just felt like a horrible person, because I wasn’t being clear about what my intentions were and what the situation was. So, just like you said, for me, it is a gut feeling thing. And I also get that gut feeling thing when I am approached by people. So, I don’t know, maybe a couple of years ago, a friend of mine who I hadn’t spoken with in a while sent me this Facebook message: hey I haven’t seen you in a long time, I have got this great thing and I came back to her and I said: you know, I would really love to meet up with you, but I am also really not interested in a network marketing thing. I have never heard back from her. So, yeah, I felt kind of bad about that; but I think being transparent about what I am interested in, and how I am interested in engaging with the other person, I think is also really important. I would have loved to catch up with her, but I was really not interested in the sales pitch for this whatever it was that she was doing, so.

Jo: That’s interesting. Have you ever had a situation where someone has called you out on it? I was just thinking, I hope I have the friends, and peers, and colleagues, who would say: you know, I think maybe you could have been more transparent about that. I never had it actually happen but…

Holly: No one has ever… I can’t think of a time someone has said that to me. I think that transparency is a really high value for me and it is something that I have always really valued. I was just thinking back to my first business, with the eco hotels, because I was in charge of reservations, and sales and the website and marketing and all that and I was also on-site so I could see the times that people had booked a holiday and weren’t pleased with the place, that was where I think I learned that to avoid problems, you give them as much information as possible. So, I created this incredibly detailed list of frequently-asked-questions based on things that I knew people were displeased with, or unpleasantly surprised about. So, I feel like this transparency has been a really important part of my business for a really, really long time, back to the beginning, 1999, because it just made everything easier and it felt like the right thing to do. We had such a unique produce and service, it was the kind of thing that was like marmite: either you loved it or your hated it. So, the more information that you had, the easier it was to see if it was right for them or not.

Jo: I think that’s interesting. I also think, yeah, I think transparency, I wouldn’t necessarily have said that it was a value it is almost something that I can’t help. I think of the number of times, even when I worked back in an office, I have gone into a meeting and said: I am really sorry the baby had me up, I have had like three hours sleep, where are we? And the boss has taken me aside and said: next time, could you just not say that you have just only had three hours sleep… {laughing} But now I will turn up to a webinar and say: I am really sorry, I have had tech day from hell.

Holly: Yeah

Jo: I can remember meeting you once in London and going: okay, full disclosure I forgot to brush my teeth! {laughing}

Holly: I hadn’t noticed! It was all good. Because it is okay to say that, because I don’t think that’s too much information, I think it gives people context for where you are coming from. People are going to be so much more compassionate if they know that you had a bad tech day, or whatever, because things aren’t perfect.

Jo: Exactly, exactly, I think we have solve the whole transparency issue for the Internet! {laughing}

Holly: Exactly. You now have all the information you need to go out and be transparent in business and life. {laughing} And if you have any questions, just get in touch.

Jo: Yes, drop us a line, thanks Holly this has been really fun!

Holly: Yeah, I loved it, I am so glad we did this topic, because it is something that I have been thinking about for the last couple of days. I thought: this is a good Jo and Holly topic.

So thank you for listening and like I said before if you have any questions you can get in touch with us: [email protected] and [email protected]; ask us any questions, tell us what you think, what are your views on transparency? We would love to hear from you. Have a good day.

So, I hoped you enjoyed this episode, drop me a line as I said, let me know what you thought about it, you can email me: [email protected], or you can find me on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram and get in touch. I would love to give you a shout out on the show. And I would also love for you to join me in my private Facebook group: Business Mindset Alchemists, so we can continue the conversation there. Podcasting is really a one-way conversation, we have just been talking at you, Jo and I, for the last almost hour probably, so l’d love get some feedback from you in the group. Business Mindset Alchemists is a group dedicated to exploring business mindset and how you can get the mindset you need to achieve your dreams. I would love to see you in there so please go to: https://www.hollyworton.com/group and you will be redirected to the group. Thank you so much for listening and if you enjoyed this episode please leave a quick review on iTunes, it would mean the world to me. You can visit: hollyworton.com/233 for the show notes on this episode.