Today’s Guest

About Jo Casey

Jo Casey has over 20 years experience of working as a trainer and consultant in the corporate, public and third sectors. Her flashy clients and workplaces have included Pricewaterhouse Coopers (PWC), The NHS, BT, Toyota Motors, Peugeot Business School, The Welsh Assembly Government, The Girl Guides UK, Vets4Pets/Companion Care, several Local Government Authorities, and The Department Of Work And Pensions. But she’s also worked with many no less wonderful smaller ventures, micro businesses and SMEs.

She’s a self-confessed nerd and has taught at college and university levels and is a visiting lecturer at the University of Chester. Jo has a Masters Degree in Coaching and Organizational Development and she’s an NLP Master Practitioner, MBTI qualified professional certified Emotional Intelligence EQi 2.0 consultant.

She’s been coaching for over 15 years now – clocking up over 1000 hours of coaching experience. Basically, she carefully treads that line between being passionate and a tiny bit obsessive about what she does (obsession often wins). Jo runs accredited coach training programs and coaches people from all over the world via the power of the internet.

Listen to this episode

   

What You’ll Learn

• Why we’re shifting our focus to woo for our co-hosted episodes
• What do we mean by woo (and why that’s a controversial word to even be using)
• Our own journeys to woo: how they’re different and what it might look like for you
• Why you might be a seeker even if you’re not aware of it
• What is intuition, why you might want it, and how you can cultivate your own
• Why people are often resistant to opening up to woo
• Why it can be useful (and very empowering!) to open up to woo

Things We Discussed

• Business Intuition book, by Holly Worton
• Holly Worton & 4 “Woo” Experts: How to Get Over Your Fear of Sharing Your Woo
• Tracie Nichols
• The Coaches & Healers Collective 
• Holly’s Patreon

How to Subscribe

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Related episodes

• 296 Joanna Hennon + Holly: Talking to Unseen Beings: Is it Enlightened, or Just Crazy?
• 281: Jo Casey + Holly ~ Woo & You
• [R2B116] Cara Wilde ~ How Channeling Your Guides Can Transform Your Business

Transcript

The transcript for this episode can also be downloaded here (no opt-in required).

Holly: Hello and welcome to the Into the Woods podcast, episode 281. This is your host Holly Worton, and I am super-excited to say that I am back with another co-hosted episode with the fabulous Jo Casey. It has been a long time since we did an episode together, in fact our last one was in May. My business as you know has taken a new turn in direction, focussing on writing and focussing on nature, and helping people connect more deeply to themselves through connecting with nature. So, we thought, what are we going to talk about? Not business, let’s talk about woo! So, after a little chat a couple of weeks ago, we thought that it would be fun, and interesting and useful for our listeners for our podcast episodes together to take on more of a metaphysical focus and talk about all things woo. Jo calls it: “Everything you ever wanted to know about intuition, woo and witchcraft, but were too afraid to ask.”

So, in this very first episode of the woo variety, we will be talking about our own personal journeys to woo, how you can benefit from connecting to your own woo. As Jo often says, she has tons of questions about this, she will be asking me questions, some of which I am sure I can answer and some of which I may not be able to answer, but our first conversation on this topic was really, really, good, I think it was really juicy, and I think it is also really useful for other people to hear, because it can help you to reflect on your own journey and what you think about this stuff.

So, I am super-excited to introduce this episode. What you will learn today: we talk about why we are shifting our focus to woo, for these co-hosted episodes. We also talk about: what do we mean by woo? I know some people use it a lot, some people don’t even know what it means, and for some people it is a very controversial word to even be using, because some people see woo as just normal life. We talk about our own journeys to woo, how they are different and what your journey might look like for you. We talk about why you might be a seeker, even if you are not aware of it, because I certainly wasn’t aware of it for the longest time. We discuss what is intuition, why you might want it, and how you cultivate your own sense of intuition. We discuss why people are often resistant to opening up to woo, but yet why people are starting to open up to it. Finally, we close with why it can be useful and very empowering — in the true sense of the word — for you to open up to woo. For me, it has been a massive, important, part of my journey and it is something that I am really glad that I opened up to start kind of incorporating into my life, because it has really helped me be more grounded, more centred, more confident, it has been absolutely life-changing. So, without further ado, this is a long and juicy episode, I will turn you over to our conversation.

Jo: Hello, welcome, this is Jo Casey and I am here with Holly Worton, and we are very excited to be back!!

Holly: Yes!!

Jo: So, the eager-eared amongst you may have noticed that it has been a while. It has been a while since Holly and I have done a podcast together and we used to do a monthly podcast, which was still very much business-focussed and there have been some changes over the past few months, and we kind of wanted to come back with a bit of a new format but still with some really, really, relevant, I think juicy, conversations. So, we are very excited about the slight pivot in direction that we are taking on these monthly episodes and we can’t wait to share them with you.

So, Holly, would you mind just telling folks just a little about what has been going on for you, because I think for you it has been a much more significant change of direction, whereas I pretty much doing the same thing. {Both: laughing}

Holly: Yes, so, after much resistance this year, I have let go of the business mindset part of my business, which is like my entire business (!) and I have decided to focus on my writing and helping people with my writing. However, I have also moved away from writing the Business Mindset books and I am moving more towards books, and we will see how it goes, but the one that I am writing right now is helping people connect to themselves through connecting with nature, and I think that’s going to be the theme for my books from here on out. We shall see, but I am focussing more on the nature side of things, rather than the mindset side of things.

Jo: I think for folks who have known you, and certainly have listened to your podcast for the past kind of 12 months or so, I know, even on the the monthly episodes that we did, we had lots of conversations about the fact that you felt that you were in process of letting go of some stuff, and there was something new on the way, but you weren’t sure what it was. There was a lot of kind of: I am not sure of the direction, so it is really lovely hearing the certainty and the clarity in your voice, and just the grounded-ness in this decision, it is like the path kind of became apparent to you, revealed itself to you.

Holly: The funny thing is, when I look back through my journals, the path became apparent to me quite early on in the year {laughing} and I just didn’t take action on it because I was really resisting it. I always find it really challenging to kind of let go of old identities and step into a new identity. So, to fully step into the author identity, and release the business mindset expert identity, it took the better part of this year. So, that was the challenging part of it for me, I think.

Jo: I think that piece around our identities is so potent and powerful, and yet doesn’t get talked about and discussed, nearly as much as I think it could do with, particularly in terms of the personal development, coaching arena. I know that: who am I? What is my thing in the world, who am I being? All of those questions are so deep, so fundamental, I think they do take time to shake out and it is a big deal and it can be kind of intimidating. And I think then, once you have kind of transitioned into it, it can feel (and I don’t know if this was your experience?): oh, this just feels so right, but it can take a long time to process that I think.

Holly: It does, it does and I agree that this is something that I think we need to be talking about more, and more people need to be sharing their stories, because I think that for those of us that are into the coaching world, and into personal development, we often pivot a lot in our business and let go of old identities and step into new ones; as we are peeling off the layers of crap that we are not, and getting to the core of who we are and really refining what our business is, and how we help people, and how we serve, and we can go through a lot iterations of business, before we kind of get to that. At this point I am wondering; does it ever really end? Because, I think life is kind of a process of refining and getting to that core, so really this is ongoing.

Jo: I agree and even if you think – it is seen as the ages of man – but I think the ages of womanhood, the archetypes that we go through, those roles, those archetypes, that we inhabit. Even just through the ageing process, going from the maiden to whether it be the mother, or then into the crone or the wise woman, we are really crap at talking about that stuff and helping people through, even just those transitions which affect pretty much everybody. And I think you are absolutely right we never stop that process of kind of peeling off the layers, of identifying and standing in our true essence, and I think that true essence also has an evolution, depending on the times in our lives. Does that make sense?

Holly: Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

Jo: I think it is something that this kind of instant, just add water, ping in the microwave, culture that we have, this: aren’t I there yet? All of that being said, it is lovely hearing that clarity and that kind of ownership in your voice, I can almost sense is relief the right word?

Holly: Yes, absolutely.

Jo: It is a relief?

Holly: It is. It was such a struggle, and every time I have pivoted to a new iteration of my business I have really struggled with: what are people going to think? I am changing my mind again, all that crap. But, the second I let go of that, and I started making changes on my website, that was when I felt like: okay, the change is here, because I have removed all the stuff on my website about “work with me”, and “here’s what I do”, that was the moment where I really felt: ahh I can settle into this, I have made the decision and I am here — it was definitely a sense of relief.

Jo: That’s wonderful. So, can I ask a bit more then, so you are going to be writing and it is about the connection with nature, but I know that is not the only thing that has been going on for you, I know that you have been working on some spiritual stuff as well.

Holly: Yes, yes, throughout the course of the year, and it is interesting now with the year coming to an end, how aligned my spiritual path this year has been with the book that I am working on, and my own personal journey. It is really not a surprise that it has all kind of been parallel, and I didn’t see it until a few weeks ago. At the start of the year I had let go of a spiritual group, that I had been in for 12 years, which was a Sufi group, and I was working with a Sufi teacher, and we had personal exercises that we did every day and weekly group exercises. And it was absolutely life-changing for me when I joined it twelve years ago, and it was where I met my husband, and it is something that I still love, but I started to feel towards the end of last year that I needed something new. I needed a new kind of spiritual path that was more nature-based and more earth-based, and it really took me time to find it, because I was simultaneously drawn to the pagan stuff, but also kind of really not. {laughing} So, I had a lot of judgemental crap about the pagan spiritual path that I needed to let go of before I found Druidry last December, and I signed up for the bardic grade course through Obod, which is the order of Bards, Ovates & Druids, and started that, and that has been absolutely life-changing for me in terms of giving me a framework for how I approach my spiritual connection to nature, because I have always felt a deep spiritual connection to nature. Nature has been more to me than just walking in the woods, it feeds my soul and gives me so much on a spiritual level, but I never really had a framework for understanding that and working with it, and I feel like now I do; so I am really, really, excited about the path that I am on and I am really looking forward to moving into the next phase of this with the applicator now for the Ovate grade and, yeah, moving forward with nature-spirituality.

Jo: I know that in your writing and on your podcast, you have gone into this in much more depth, but for those folks who…{laughing} could you just give us a briefest of briefest primers on what is Druidism? My understanding is that it is a very ancient religion that is based around nature, and it was politically driven out, certainly in my part of the world, in the British Isles. Could you just give folks a bit of a…? You can almost see my: I think I have hit my level of knowledge on it there {Both: laughing}

Holly: Well it was the original spiritual path of this land, it originated here in Britain, people came from Europe, people came from Ireland, to study here in this land; and it is very nature-based, it is looking at our connection to the elements, to the plant-realm, to the mineral-realm, to the animal-realm, to looking at the (did I already say?) the passing of the seasons, celebrating the different equinoxes and solstices, and the other pagan holidays in between those, and deepening our connection to nature through connection with the elements and the trees, and the plants and all of that, and really honouring the earth that we live on.

Jo: I already know I am wanting a booklist off you, the nerd in me is like: I want to know about all of this, this sounds amazing.

Holly: {laughing} I have really, really, enjoyed this path, so the program that I am on is a three-year program, and each year is very different. So the bardic grade, which is the first grade, is very much about old stories, the ancient law; and, coming from the Sufi tradition, where you have teaching stories that have so many different layers of teaching, I have loved seeing that in the Druid tradition. So, we were looking at the story throughout the year amongst other things of Taliesin and his journey into kind of spirituality, and his transformation, but looking at that story as a teaching story from so many different levels. It was like, every month in the post you get this package of stuff to study, and we would look at that stuff from a different level, from a different layer, I just absolutely loved it. So I am happy to share a reading list, share ideas of things to look at, because it is just really, really fascinating, and it just really helped me to deepen my connection to nature and understand why I have always felt connected to nature.

Jo: That sounds amazing! Okay, so, it kind of brings us nicely into {drum roll} the focus of what the new iteration of what the monthly podcast is going to be. I think throughout our journey together doing these episodes, it has always been fairly clear that you were way more open to ideas of spirit, and metaphysics, and for want of a better word, woo, than I was. I always joked that I was woo-adjacent, although you always insist that I am lot more woo than I will admit. {Both: laughing}

Holly: I think you are a lot more woo than you will admit to yourself, it’s like you don’t see how woo you actually are.

Jo: Okay, fair enough!

Holly: It is not like you are hiding it from other people, I think you just don’t see it in yourself.

Jo: I think most of my clients would agree with you with there. I think, partly it is because I feel like I have so little actual knowledge, the geek in me, the nerd in me…I want the research, I want the books and it feels like such a big arena, but I am definitely open, if fairly ignorant in a lot of things. And so we were kind of chatting and talking about: well, maybe that becomes the jumping off point for our conversations; because I know, from so many people I know, and I come into contact with, whether it be my clients, or whether it be people in my community, or my friends, that there is a desire or a burgeoning awareness in so many of us that this is not all there is, there are connections to nature, there are connections to the lunar cycle. A number of entrepreneurs who this past week, we are still in Mercury retrograde at the moment, who have had just the most ridiculous tech things and challenges. It has almost become just the accepted wisdom now in my communities, that things like the planets and energies do affect us. I have a suspicion that as women in particular, and women identifying folks, whether we are culturally more attuned to it, or just by our very nature we are more attuned to it, but there are a lot of people who are seeking, and I definitely class myself as one of those people. So, we chatted, and were thinking: that might be a really good topic of conversation, let’s dive into maybe different aspects of woo, for want of a better word, and we are going to talk a little bit about that terminology, because I don’t think either of us are 100% happy with that terminology. And I will take the position of the person who asks seven million questions {Both: laughing}, because that’s how I tend to lead with things, and you, not in the position of guru, because I know that’s not ever a position you would put yourself in, but as the person who has more knowledge, is further along the path, has a really interesting, different perspective, and have some conversations around some of these things that I think, particularly from my audience who are business owners, how do we start to incorporate some of this stuff, can we incorporate some of this stuff? What are some of the historical things around this? And how can we use things like our intuition, other magical practices, for again want of a better word, woo practices, to enhance our lives and enhance our business.

Holly: Absolutely, and you used a word there which I think is really important to highlight, which is seeker. I was a seeker for so long and I didn’t even realise it, it was like I was looking for more, I was looking for information, I wanted to learn more about this stuff, but it wasn’t until, probably about a month or so before I joined my first spiritual path, that someone said like straight up: you are a seeker. And it was like a lightbulb went on in my head and I thought: you are right, I am looking for more, but it was like I was craving something, but I didn’t know what or how to get it. So, how has your journey been like with that, with being a seeker?

Jo: I think something similar, recently I was doing a questionnaire for a friend who is a coach and she asked about spiritual beliefs: do you believe in a Christian God and things like that? I said words to the effect: I don’t believe in a Christian God, but I don’t un-believe, I can’t tell you what is out there, but I know there is something, that there is a lot, I know we are connected, but I don’t know how. It is almost like I have an instinctive knowing, without having any kind of, or very little, language to put around it. I know there is much more, and I don’t doubt that as much as I used to. So I think, certainly before I met you, and having these regular conversations that we have been having for the past few years, interestingly enough over the past few years my clients have become more and more diverse, in terms of their methodologies. I get to work with some amazing practitioners of the most amazing modalities, you know people who do do nature medicine, or are shamans, or work with the divine feminine. I think before I started having those conversations with you, and other folks, I think my self doubt would creep in, that old kind of: oh that’s really stupid, you have got no evidence of that have you? That would kick in much more, and now that doesn’t kick in it is more: I don’t understand what that is, but it sounds amazing! {Both: laughing} Or sometimes it is not even that, more it is that I instinctively know what this person is talking about, but I don’t have the language for it yet.

Holly: Yes.

Jo: It is like it is operating on a different… level in me?

Holly: Absolutely, that makes sense. It is like your gut knows it, but your head doesn’t have the framework to…

Jo: Yes, yes. It is like my cells or something.

Holly: Yes, I always say that my gut is smarter than my head, so. {laughing}

Jo: I think most things are smarter than my head! {laughing} In all seriousness, it really depends, because my head is the place my anxiety resides, it is where all my fears — all the not-useful-fears, reside. It can also be incredibly insightful and read a lot of books, but it is, really, not that multi-dimensionally smart, it can be clever, but not smart. So, all of what you are saying makes perfect sense. Would it be useful to talk about the language around this? : Maybe because it is one of the areas that I am struggling with.

Holly: Yes, absolutely.

Jo: So, I know that you and I talked about this idea of woo, and I think it is a phrase that I use in terms of, in my mind it came from that phrase: “it is very woo-woo”, in that almost eye-rolling way, and then by using the term it is almost like reclaiming it, and making it my own, and kind of going actually I really like it, it is magical, and it just encompasses a whole load of other stuff. But you were saying, certainly for some of your friends, and fellow practitioners, that they don’t like the word?

Holly: Actually, I did an episode, I think it was early this year, or last year, on my podcast where I interviewed kind of five kind of different woo experts. So I did five mini-interviews and put them all together and at least one, if not two, of the people on that said specifically: I don’t like that word, because to me it’s not woo it is normal. That is my normal life, it is full of this stuff, so by calling it woo it is like saying it is not normal, or weird, or different, whereas, for me, this is my normal life.

Jo: That makes a lot of sense for people who are at that stage of: this is my normal life. {laughing}

Holly: Yeah, exactly. {laughing}

Jo: Are there any other words, any other terminology, that we could use interchangeably or…?

Holly: I don’t know, I don’t know of any other words, I use the word woo, just because I think everyone knows what it means, but I happened to mention woo on Facebook, I don’t know whether it was when I posted about that episode, or what, but a friend of mine from years and years ago, actually posted and said: I don’t know what woo is, can you explain that? And I was surprised: you have never heard that term before? I am aware that I am in this really niche world of woo people, but I really didn’t realise that normal people (oh God, I just said normal people!). {Both: laughing}

Jo: So, I have got a couple of clients who are in the coaching world, who call non-coaching people “muggles”.

Holly: Yes, I was going to use that word and then I thought, no, and then I said normal which was worse, {laughing} so, let’s go with muggle. {laughing} I have never actually read the Harry Potter books, but I know what that means.

Jo: Really, they are amazing, they are seriously good books; anyway that’s another episode, I will try and bring you up to the Harry Potter side of things. {laughing}

Holly: So, I don’t know a lot of words, I feel like for a lot of people woo kind of, it is three letters, one syllable, easy to say, most people know what that means, I think, but then some people you have to explain it to. I don’t know, metaphysical stuff, alternative, I don’t even know what… To me woo is the best word that I have found, even though I know not everyone is happy with it.

Jo: Okay, I think that’s probably the word that we will be using most often. Intuition is another word that I use quite a lot, and I don’t know if that encompasses all of the same, intuition is more of the modality, the methodology, whereas woo I think encompasses a lot more than that, it can be different.

Holly: It is a like the over-arching kind of theme, yeah. So, intuition and, interestingly, one of my first books was on Business Intuition.

Jo: I know, right…

Holly: I think it is so important, and intuition is something that for years I was totally out of touch with it, I was just not connected to myself, I was totally off-whack with myself – really disconnected. So, I thought intuition was the kind of thing that either you have it, or you don’t. And then I learned that: no, you can actually develop it in yourself by doing certain things or forging that connection and that trust in yourself. So, what is intuition? Intuition is your gut-feeling, your inner-compass, your true north, that kind of feeling that tells you if something is right or wrong. I don’t know it is that idea that pops into your head when you are thinking about something else, and as soon as it pops into your head, maybe it is an idea for a creative thing, or a new path, or something and you just know in your gut that it’s right? How would you define intuition — what is it for you?

Jo: So, I find, a lot of the time when I am working with people, this is something that has happened much more as I have developed as a practitioner, but I am much more comfortable in leaning into, I suppose, the flow, and being in the moment with people and I find that there is almost, like a tuning into the energy flow; and I find that ideas and inspiration, it is almost like they are downloaded. It is almost like that conscious part of my brain is off going: oh yes, we need to think of the blah, blah, blah…and then I will get this flash of inspiration and it almost comes outside of me, in this amazing combination of just being in really deep connection with, and sometimes, and this has happened increasingly over the past six, to twelve months, and I blame you and I have got another friend called Tracie Nichols, who is an amazing aromatherapist, and nature-based therapist, and she works with multi-passionates and highly sensitive people. What I found started happening, at first with my sessions with her, and now much more so in pretty much all of my sessions with clients, is that sometimes I will have the sense of something, but it is almost like something coming into focus and I will say things like: there is so much here, but I haven’t got the words for it yet.

Holly: It is still landing.

Jo: Yes, it is still landing!  I was going to say it is the weirdest feeling, but it is not, it feels the most natural feeling, and I have learnt not to question it and some of the most amazing inspirational ideas come from it. Now I don’t know, because I know that some people will say that I am an intuitive coach, or I’m an intuitive, I kind of associate that with: is that mind-reading, or clairvoyance? I’m not sure if they mean something slightly…I got the feeling that being an “intuitive” means something slightly different to what I experience, but that’s my definition, of what intuition means to me. I also find that my intuition can get totally drowned out by busyness. So, the modern world, I think, really works against our ability to tune into our intuition. I know that, for me, my intuition is really strong when I go for my walk every day, and make sure that I don’t listen to podcasts, I don’t listen to music, I get out there with the trees and the water and the dog. When I am meditating, yes, but sometimes just having quiet time, being able to tune into what is going on for me physically as well. Feeling very kind of in my body, not so in my head, that really enhances my intuition abilities.

Holly: Absolutely, it is that giving yourself permission to have quiet time and connecting through yourself to quiet. To me, also intuition is, oftentimes It is those messages coming from your higher self, or your soul, or your superconscious, or whatever you may call it — I think there are a ton of different words for it. I think that’s also that higher part of yourself going: this not that, here’s an idea, work on this. And because your higher self is connected to everything, it has got access to so much more information, but it doesn’t always make sense to your logical conscious mind, so that’s why you need to have that quiet time to let those little bits of information pop in.

Jo: That makes sense. That is certainly my kind of experience. I almost feel like this stuff, I’m kind of feeling my way through it, but working without the guide book, where is the damn guid book Holly! Is that what you are writing? Tell me that’s what you are writing! {laughing}

Holly: Maybe I should! {Both: laughing}

Jo: But I think that’s my kind of conscious, rational brain wanting, even though intuitively I think: there isn’t a guidebook, you don’t need a guidebook, you were born with a guidebook!

Holly: That’s the thing but most of us don’t know that, because we are so used to hearing all the gurus and all the teachers and all the other people saying: do it my way, my way is the right way, here is the seven steps to this, here are the five things that we need to do for that. And we are so used to looking outside of ourselves for guidance and wisdom and information, that we don’t even realise that we have got the guidebook within us.

Jo: That’s so true, because we do have this really guru-centred world. Okay, can I switch, I am just going to ask you seven-million questions, if that’s all right?

Holly: Sure! {Both: laughing} Fire away!

Jo: So, we have established that there are different types of woo, and it would seem to me that the way to get started on it, and tune in, is to get out of busy-ness, is to learn to trust ourselves. And I am wondering if that is maybe a whole episode about how we start to do that. But, why should we bother? {Both: laughing} It sounded horrible the way I said that! There is almost that question, so I am thinking, I met, we were at a party the weekend before last, a friend of mine who I know from my old tech/e-learning days was there, and he was talking about his partner, and he said: yeah, yeah, she has got into all of this, I don’t know, tarot, or Angel cards, or something like that. I mean, it is all nonsense, but I kind of think: well if she believes it, what’s the harm? And I thought, well I probably would have been kind of: “oh yes, he is right, it is all nonsense”, a few years ago. And now I am just like: that’s just him. I think there is that, not build a case for the defence, but how does being more open to this stuff, how does it help us? What is the benefit?

Holly: Well, for me, the benefit is we are the only ones that know what is best for us, so if you are always looking for the guru and the seven steps to this and someone else’s blue print, that’s what worked for them, and that may or may not work for you, or it might work for you with some tweaks. But if you are constantly going out from yourself to looking at other people for solutions, you are going to find their solutions, which may not be your solutions. Whereas if you start looking within, you are going to get your solutions which are going to be faster, more effective, more aligned, easier, because they’re going to be your thing, and I think that’s kind of a, I don’t want to say more authentic way of living, but easier way of living because it is you and your thing, rather than always struggling to try to do someone else’s thing. I think it is a much more efficient, and effective, way of living.

Jo: I had not thought about it that way, I honestly thought you were going to say actually, no, now I think about it you were never going to say that…but you see there is part of me I was kind of thinking: oh is it that our angel guides have so much more wisdom coming from millennia of human potential wisdom, which I have to say would probably make me go: urgh that feels too big and scary!

Holly: Okay, it is good you said that, because so do we, because if you believe in the concept of reincarnation, if you believe of a concept of a soul that chooses to have different human experiences here on earth, we have got access to all that information from our previous lifetimes, if we know how to access it, if we are willing to look at it, if we are willing to bring that wisdom into our lives — we don’t necessarily even have to look to spirit guides or Angels… We can, that’s absolutely fine, but we have also got — assuming you believe in this – lifetimes of wisdom of all the crap that we have learned, and all the stuff that we suffered, and all the stuff that we experienced, and all the mistakes that we have made, from God knows how many incarnations.

Jo: Okay, so I just had a lightbulb! So my kind of thing of: oh, do I have to look to the Angel guides or the spirit guides, partly that scares me because I don’t understand enough about it, but partly I realise: oh, that’s me looking for the guru again!

Holly: {HW: mm}, yes, and I am not going to say that I don’t do that, I do do it, I ask the Angels for help, I have spirit guides that I channel, that’s great, I love that stuff and I do it, but part of my path, and part of this change that I am going through now, is helping people connect with themselves, so that they can tap into their own inner wisdom and their higher self, and get their own stuff that they have got, rather than constantly looking outside themselves to other people, entities, energies, whatever.

Jo: So we become sovereign keepers of ourselves?

Holly: Yes!

Jo: There is a huge amount of agency, genuine, I am going to use this word which I hate because it is so overused in personal development, but that kind of empowerment, but there is genuine power in that, in being able to tap into that source, of kind of wisdom within yourself — and trusting that that’s there.

Holly: Yes, yes and trusting in yourself, just unwavering trust in yourself.

Jo: I suppose that then goes into…my brain goes into: what if I make a mistake, and the answer I immediately got is: oh what if you do?

Holly: That’s how you learn.

Jo: Exactly, exactly. This kind of sense of, I think there is something really comforting in the idea of kind of: oh, I am actually kind of stretched out over generations and generations and lifetimes and lifetimes and lifetimes, and so therefore any stupid mistake I make now, in the scheme of things…so it allows an awful lot of self-compassion as well.

Holly: Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

Jo: I am loving this! Okay, so why do you think there is so much resistance to the idea of woo, and all of that kind of stuff?

Holly: Well, I think because it has been pushed out of the mainstream, into the side stream, weird, niche, kind of area. And I think people are afraid of being seen as stupid, they are afraid of people laughing at them, if they admit that they like these things, or are open to these things, or accept these things, because it is very much a niche thing, and I don’t think it always was. And I think it was absolutely the normal way of doing things, many, many, many, years ago, but I think new religions came in, as you said, when we were talking about Druidry, the Romans came, and they squashed it, and they took some of the goddesses and transformed them into saints to try to make it easier to convert people.

Jo: Woah, woah, hold the phone, they did!? Which ones? I want to know this now! {laughing}

Holly: {laughing} Well, one of my favourites is Bridget, who was a saint in the Catholic Church, so St Bridget, but she was a goddess before she was a saint. So, that is just one example, but there are so many examples of Christianity taking local pagan…Christmas for God’s sake, we are coming up on Christmas, that was Yule.

Jo: I remember that, and some of the things like the bringing of the greenery into the house, bringing in a Christmas tree, and those types of things, that was about bringing in the nature spirits into the house.

Holly: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, and helping us through this time of darkness and stepping into light, because also we are approaching the darkest time of the year, and then we are going to be coming out and know the light is coming. Easter of course, that’s totally pagan, look at the date for Easter, it is the first Sunday, after the first full moon, after the Spring Equinox. What is that? That’s pagan!

Jo: {laughing} I remember years ago teaching an equality and diversity course, and as part of the thing we had brought in this game to play with folks, to start to broaden their ideas of culture and diversity, and one of the questions on there was around Easter, and where does the name Easter come from? And of course it come from Eostre, and the idea that we have Easter eggs, comes from the fact that Eostre was represented as a hare, a rabbit, and it was the pagan festival of fertility, she was the goddess of fertility – am I getting this right?

Holly: Yes, yes.

Jo: And so all of this thing, you did kind of think: okay so where did the eggs come in for this Christian festival about Jesus dying, and resurrecting? It is this pagan festival of… we have hot cross buns, I don’t know if they have those in say the US? In the UK we have hot cross buns which are a little sweat bread roll and it has a cross in the middle, and I was always told that that was to represent the cross of Jesus Christ, but then when I did this course, they were actually saying: no, originally it represented the four seasons.

Holly: Ooh I like that! Even more reason to eat hot cross buns.

Jo: If you can find gluten free ones!

Holly: I just eat the normal ones, I love them so much. {laughing}

Jo: So there was a lot of politics and stuff that crushed this, and one of the things that the feminist in me gets really kind of quite excited about is learning about the historical position of witchcraft, and the demonization of, the literal demonization, of witchcraft. I find that fascinating, historically my understanding is that the majority of witches, people who were burned as witches, were wise women, were midwives, were the medicine healers. Or just gobby women who had opinions, and they were the people who were burned as witches, and it was a very deliberate attempt to squash this very matriarchal power source and replace it with this very patriarchal view of puritanical Christianity. A very patriarchal view of medicine, moving away from a lot of the wisdom that was there around childbirth and turning it into something that was much more male-dominated. I find all of that fascinating and I am quite into how there is so much kind of modern day witchcraft that is, I know it has become a bit of a… I know some people criticise it because it has become a bit of a fashion statement, but I kind of think: well, so what?

Holly: Who cares?! If it opens people’s minds to a different way of doing things and a different way of seeing the world, I don’t care! It is opening people up to ancient, ancient, wisdom and bringing it back up to the surface.

Jo: I am looking at my desk now, and I have a little icon of Ganesh, which I got in India, I have a little bowl full of crystals, I have a salt lamp, I have two sets of tarot cards, and I have a set of oracle cards, and a copper singing bowl and I don’t fully understand what any of them are meant to do. {Both: Laughing} So, this is the thing, I don’t know if it is because my logical academic-y brain, wants to have the guidebook. So I have all these crystals and I keep telling myself: you must learn what the crystals all mean, but I don’t, I just know that some days I prefer cradling different ones in my hands and that’s okay. I also have quite a few aromatherapy mixes and potions and things, I really love the power of aromatherapy. Tarot cards, similar thing, I have the Gaian Tarot, which is this beautiful one, which is, again, very nature-based, which I love, and when I got that I just thought: oh my god I just feel so good when I am around this; but I also have the wild unknown tarot, which I opened and it scared the pants off me and I generally never take it off the shelf, genuinely, I get a kind of: I don’t like this feeling off it! …and I don’t know why, do I need to know why?

Holly: I mean, I understand your conscious mind needs to know why, because I have also come from a very brain-focussed, head-based life; where I need logic, and I need to understand things. And it has been challenging for me, to step up into my body and feel into things, rather than thinking: I need to understand. Absolutely, when you mentioned that some days you feeling like you need certain crystals, some days you feel you need others. I have a whole thing of crystals sitting behind my desk, and I do the same thing, when I bought them, I bought them because I knew what they are going to do for me. I don’t remember all the details, and so oftentimes I will work that way too; I feel like having this crystal and holding it during my hand during a session, or I feel like sitting with it as I work. I have got this one giant green, I can never remember the name, Calcite, or the other one, that starts with a c {laughing} see I am not an expert on this stuff! I had this giant green thing that starts with a c, sitting on my desk for two years now, and I love it and it does not move, it always sits there, and I don’t remember why I bought it I needed it and it needed to be a big one {laughing}. So, I think, part of our working with this stuff can come from the head, and part of it can come from the gut, I think it is a mix of things.

Jo: I really like the fact that this is, I feel like this has given me so much permission to just go with the flow, which, again, is a very intuitive way of approaching things.

Holly: Absolutely.

Jo: I think, I am pretty sure I can’t be alone in this, but I have think I have thought: I don’t really have any knowledge in this area, so I can’t really talk about my experience of it, because I don’t know the history, I don’t know the answers. And I think there is something around, I also want to be respectful of the modalities, of the belief systems behind them. I don’t just want to go wading in going: oh I’m going to have dream catcher because native Americans…there is something that can be very, I think, almost taking things for the fashion and dismissing the whole cultural meaning of them — I want to be really careful around that. So I think it can be a tricky line sometimes, that being said, I am maybe going to allow myself to just go: yes, I am going to hold the purple crystal today, which I know is called amethyst {Both: laughing} that’s the one that I know, and sometimes I hold the yellow one, and sometimes I hold the pink one which I know is called pink Quartz, and then I have a blue one, I also have a green one and I don’t know what it is called. I think that’s okay, that whole thing of needing to know the answer, and the logical reason behind it, is kind of keeping me separate and missing the point.

Holly: Yeah, it is, because there is a part of you that knows exactly what that thing is called and what it does and why you need it today.

Jo: So, my brain is trying to go: okay but I need the road map and I need to have the guide book and maybe I just let that part of my brain go off and you go and figure it out then, I am just going to sit here with my nice pink Quartz and smell my tulsi oil, and pull out another oracle card, and that will be good for the day.

Holly: Yeah – it is all good.

Jo: I think these conversations are going to be great!

Holly: They are!

Jo: They are going to be so good, so what we thought we would do as part of this, we would will maybe take different aspects of woo? {Both: laughing} …aspects of woo and have conversations around them. Not with Holly being in the position of: she is is the oracle, she is the guru, but as somebody who is further along the path. We also talked about maybe getting in some particular guests experts, if there is an area, we are both interested in but just wanted to be able to ask seven million questions of somebody {Both: laughing} who was a practitioner of this. So, if you have any suggestions of topics, or areas of conversation that you would like us to focus on, then please do, you can drop us a line, I am: [email protected]

Holly: And I am [email protected]

Jo: We both have Facebook groups…

Holly: No I don’t!

Jo: Oh you don’t!

Holly: I closed it.

Jo: You closed that as well!?

Holly: Yes, I moved it over to Patreon, and I have got a little group in Patreon, and that’s where it is, I have closed my Facebook group. {laughing}

Jo: That must be really recent? Is it not recent?

Holly: No, about a month ago, I think.

Jo: That’s recent to me.

Holly: Well, okay, my life moves at a speed and I that was like old news… {Both: laughing}

Jo: I have a Facebook group, and Holly has a Patreon group, okay I want to talk to you about Patreon and all of that stuff.

Holly: Please do, I love it, I love it, love it!

Jo: If you do have topics and subjects that you would like us to dive into, or maybe even suggestions for guests, that would be awesome. I will bring the seven million questions and Holly will bring her much more grounded wisdom. {laughing}

Holly: I will bring my gut! {laughing}

Jo: Okay you will bring your gut – see I love the way you are so down to earth! I think one of the things as well, is that you have this particular talent, Holly, of just being very down to earth and not… so you make the subjects seem just so natural and non-intimidating

Holly: Oh, that’s nice!

Jo: And very approachable.

Holly: Thank you, I like that.

Jo: So, yeah, if you have any questions, you can email either of us, I have a Facebook group which is the Coaches and Healers Collective. I will be promoting this on social media. Holly – are you still doing social media?

Holly: Yes, I am but in a radically different way. I deleted all my, not my library but my calendar for [Meet] Edgar so I am no longer sharing tons of content on social media. I am trying to kind of reduce my activity on social media but make it more social, {laughing} like I used to teach to do social media! Yes, less active but more real, rather than just: here’s my content.

Jo: So, we are really excited about this new direction, I am so jazzed about it! I am just like: oh my god, all of the things that I will get to ask. The working title that I kind of proposed for this is: Everything that you ever wanted to know about intuition, woo and witchcraft but were too afraid to ask.

Holly: Yay – like it!

Jo: So if you have any questions around any of those things or suggestions for topics, you would like us to dive into, please let us know. Holly, this is so exciting, I am so glad to be doing this again with you. I really hope that for folks that have been listening have enjoyed it and are looking forward to our next episodes and we will see you in a month’s time.

Holly: Yes, thank you, I am so glad we are back!

Jo: Me too!

Holly: Thank you so much for listening, please drop me a line and let me know what you thought of this episode, email me: [email protected] or find me online and get in touch. Please also let me know of if there are any specific woo topic that you want Jo and I to cover, please also let me know what you think of this new focus in topics for us. I know that some people that listen to this podcast are not all into woo, so sorry! {laughing} You can skip these episode or listen to them anything and see if you learn anything. Thank you again so much for listening and if you enjoy this episode please leave a quick review on Apple podcasts or iTunes would mean the world to me.

Next week’s episode I am back for another solo episode – I don’t know that topic yet and, as always, I am open to receiving topics, so if you have anything that you would like me to talk about please let me know! And remember to visit: https://www.hollyworton.com/281 for the show notes on this episode. Thank you!