278: Joanna Hennon + Holly ~ Success: It's More Than Just Money

Today’s Guest

Table of Contents

Joanna Hennon and I are back with another co-hosted episode! Today, we talk about channeling and accessing the wisdom and guidance of unseen beings. We ask a lot of questions, and come to a lot of realizations ourselves on this episode. This topic was inspired by my upcoming book, If Trees Could Talk: Life Lessons from the Wisdom of the Woods, in which I channel the stories of the trees. I’ve had to do a lot of mindset work with myself on this because so many fears and limiting beliefs come up as I talk about the book with people in my wider circle of friends and acquaintances. This episode has given me even more topics to work on with myself.

More About Joanna Hennon

Joanna is a #SoulSmart Success Mentor – she helps people to easily create more success by using the wisdom and power we all have access to at soul level. Living life from a place of soul power, in tune with your higher self and your Guides, and using the Law of Attraction with intention will literally change your life! To get started, grab one of these free resources.

Listen to this episode

What You’ll Learn

How we got started with channeling and talking to spirit guides
How can we know it’s for real (you might be surprised by our perspective on this!)
How to talk about this with people outside our immediate circle of friends
What are these beings + what types of energies we can connect with
Who can do this + does everyone have this potential
What are the benefits of communicating with the spirit world
Why it makes us feel uncomfortable to talk about these things
What types of limiting beliefs and fears might come up when we start to do this work
How we can learn to talk about this with “normal” people
How to incorporate these things into a “normal” life
How to avoid being a stereotype — and why this is important
Is talking to invisible beings becoming more common?
Whether or not it’s scary to talk to spirit guides and unseen beings
Whether or not we need to elicit protection when we do this kind of work
Why it’s a relationship like any other, and we need to see it as such
What to do if we start to see things (and how to avoid this if you don’t want to go there)
How you can learn how to do this yourself

Things We Discussed

Additional Resources

We kind of got fuzzy toward the end when we talked about how to get started. It’s true that everyone has their own path, and you’ll have to find what works for you. Here are a few resources that helped me:

Connect with Joanna

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Transcript

The transcript for this episode can also be downloaded here (no opt-in required).

Holly: Hello and welcome to the Business Mindset Podcast, episode 296. This is your host Holly Worton, and I am back with another episode with the fabulous Joanna Hennon.

Today, we talk about something that we have mentioned many times before and something that I think you know we both do and that is channelling or talking to unseen beings. And we ask a lot of questions, we explore the answers, and we come to a lot of really interesting realisations during this podcast; so I think this podcast episode was just as useful to us as we hope it is to you. We are talking about channelling, accessing the wisdom and guidance of unseen beings, because neither of us see the spirits that we are talking to. The topic was inspired by up and coming book which is called: If Trees Could Talk, Life Lessons from the Wisdom of the Woods, in which I channel the stories of tees. So, I talk to trees, they gave me their stories and the book is based around that.

So, I have had to do a lot of mindset work with myself on this, because I have had so many fears and blocks and limiting beliefs come up as I think about promoting this book, as I think about releasing this book, and as I actually talk about the book with people in my wider circle of friends and acquaintances. So, my very close friends have known about this book, my master-gut group has known about this book, I have talked about this book throughout all of last year, as I was working on it. It was really easy for me to discuss this with people that are really close to me, with people that know me well and that know that I do this kind of thing. But now that the book is getting to closer to being released, and in fact it is going to be released in almost exactly a month, so April 23rd, that’s triggered a lot of my crap, because I haver realised how uncomfortable I am talking about this book to a wider audience; and that is not good, because my intention with this book is to get this out there to a much, much, wider audience than I have with my other books.

So, I am aware that this is an issue, I am aware that this is a problem, and I have been doing the mindset work to make it easier for me to do this, however I am also aware that I still have a lot of work to do and every time I discuss this book with someone who is, again, outside my intimate circle of friends I realise that I have got to do some more mindset work.

So, that is my specific inspiration for this episode, but I think this episode will be really useful to anyone who has heard us talking about channelling and thought: hmm I might want to do that, or anyone who is interested in learning more about this or has questions. Again, if you have any questions after this episode, please feel free to get in touch with either of us – Joanna or me – and we will both be happy to talk about our experiences beyond what we got into in this episode, and maybe those answers will be just email or maybe there are future podcast episodes on this topic, I don’t know, let us know what questions you have, and we will answer.

Patreon

So, before I get into this episode, I just wanted to say thank you again to everyone who has joined me on Patreon, and I would love for you to join me as well.

So, if you have ever gotten value from this podcast, or if you ever feel that you have learned something useful, I would love for you to support me on Patreon and help this podcast to continue. So, running this podcast obviously requires an investment of time on my part, in recording the episodes, but also money, because I pay someone to edit the show and I pay for hosting and all the good stuff that goes with marketing content.

So, if you would like to support me on Patreon I would be very pleased to see you over there, head to: Patreon.com/HollyWorton and you can join me there. I have got a ton of different tiers starting at $1 a month and every little bit is very, very, welcome and useful and you can change your tier that you choose to sign up to at any time.

What You Will Learn

So, moving on to the episode: what are you going to learn today? What do we talk about? So we talk about how we got started with channelling and talking to spirit guides. We talk about how we can know if this is for real, can we know if this is for real or is it just all in our heads? You might be surprised by our perspective on this, it might not be what you expected.

Next, we talk about how to talk about this stuff with people outside our immediate circle of friends, so, as I said earlier, it was super-easy for me to talk about my tree book with people like Joanna, with people like Jo Casey, with people like my friend Cara Wilde, because they know about this stuff, they know me well and I know they are not going to be judgemental. But, with the wider audience, how do we talk about this stuff? And should we talk about this stuff, or should we keep it secret? We talk about what are these energies or beings and what types of energies or beings we can connect with, and does it really matter what types of spirits we choose to connect with?

We talk about who can do this, can everyone do this? Does everyone have this potential? And how you can get started yourself in learning more about this. We discuss what are the benefits of communicating with the spirit world, why would you even want to do this to start with? We talk about why it makes us sometimes feel uncomfortable to talk about these things. We explore what types of limiting beliefs and fears might come up when we start to do this work. We discuss how we can learn to talk about this thing with “normal people”, I hate to use the word normal because there is no such thing as normal, but you know what I mean when we talk about this, so yeah. And how to incorporate these things into a “normal” life? How do we hold down a normal job, or run a normal business and function in the mainstream world and also talk to spirit beings, how do we mix the two, or should we keep them separate?

We also discuss how to avoid being a stereotype and why we think this is important. We ask the question: is talking to invisible beings and energies becoming more common? Is this a new thing, are more people doing it, or has it always been there and not kind of talked about? Next, we ask the question: is it scary to do this? Is it scary to talk to spirit guides and unseen beings? Is it scary to see these things? Because some people do. We also discuss whether or not we need to elicit protection when we do this type of work and what we do ourselves. We also discuss the fact that this is a relationship just like any other and why we need to see it as such. So, if you want to build a relationship with your spirit guides, you need to invest your time and energy into doing so. Next, we talk about what to do if you start to see things and how to avoid that if you don’t want to go there.

Finally, we talk a little bit about how you can learn to do this yourself, and we didn’t get too much into it because I think that everyone has their own path and you really do need to find what works for you. So, in the show notes to the episode I have shared some additional resources, which I have mentioned on other podcast episodes, and go with what resonates with you. I recommend the Ask Your Guides book by Sonia Choquette, I recommend the Opening to Channel: How to Connect with Your Guide Book by Sanaya Roman and Duane Packe, they also have an online audio course which is called Opening to Channel/ Connecting with your guide. Cara Wilde also has a Channel Your Guide course which has been really helpful to me. And my coach Lisa Wechtenhiser has a WooWoo101 online course which explores getting guidance in this way and tapping into your unwavering trust in yourself. I haven’t done Lisa’s WooWoo101 course, but I love Lisa, you have heard me talk about her 1000 times, I love her work, and so I am very happy to recommend her resources. So hope you find this episode interesting and useful, it is a long one, it is exactly an hour long, and I really enjoy doing these longer podcast episodes, because I think it really helps us to explore a topic in depth, and give you a deeper perspective on what we feel about this stuff. So, hope you find this episode interesting and useful and again if you have any questions, please get in touch with either of us and let us know how we can help.

Holly: Hey Joanna.

Joanna: Hi Holly.

Holly: How are you doing today?

Joanna: I’m good. How are you?

Holly: Good. I’m really excited about today’s topic of conversation for the podcast because it is something that has been on my mind a lot lately. So, today, we are going to be talking about talking to unseen beings, is it enlightened or just crazy? {laughing}

Joanna: I really hope that our conclusion isn’t that it is just crazy, that would be bad.

Holly: {laughing} It is all an illusion, we don’t know anything, it is just a disaster…

Joanna: Well, first of all, Holly, tell us why you have been thinking about it, because I think it is really important and interesting.

Holly: It is relevant. So, I am working on kind of wrapping up my next book project, which is called: If Trees Could Talk and it is life lessons from the wisdom of the woods; and it is all a collection of stories literally from the trees. So, if you know me, you know that I spend a lot of time outdoors, I do a lot of walking through the woods, and just over a year ago, a yew tree gave me the idea for this story, which was to collect the stories from the trees. And he said that the trees have stories, people need to know what they are, and I need to collect them and put them into a book. So, that’s what I spent all of last year doing.

So this is me literally communicating with the spirits of the trees. Obviously, a tree is something that you can see, it is a physical being, but the spirit of the tree, much like our spirit, you can’t see it. I have been very uncomfortable with this project, working on it was fantastic, it totally stretched me outside of my comfort zone, I learned a lot of new things, I got better at channelling; and at the same time, started to freak out when I started to talk about the book. Because, you know my close friends who do a lot of channelling and weird stuff like I do, thought it was a great idea, got really excited about the book, but when I start talking about it to – I hate to say the word normal – but you know what I mean normal people {laughing} not weird people like us — I get really uncomfortable, because I can see things going on in people’s heads. It is like part of them wants to be very kind and polite and not tell me that I am not an absolute freak, and part of them is like: what?! So it is really uncomfortable for me, and I want to get this book out there in a much bigger way than I have with my previous books, so I have hired a publicist, I have hired a book launch coach, I want to get this book it there and at the same time it scares the crap out of me to get this out there, so that’s why we are talking about this, this is why this has been on my mind.

Joanna: Yes. I think I would find it interesting to go back to the beginning, of your story, Holly, because I remember that although you are obviously more comfortable with this now, and you have talked to all these trees, I remember at the start it was not entirely like that, it was like: should I do this, should I not, I don’t know…? I can’t remember the beginning of the story, you say this yew tree gave you this idea, can you tell us how that happened, did you ask it for an idea? Were you standing there having a coke and then it started talking to you? What happened?

Holly: {laughing} I don’t drink a lot of coke, I certainly don’t drink coke in the woods.

Joanna: I don’t know why, but in my image, you were like you were standing there with a can of coke, but you were.

Holly: Okay, cool, not how it happened! I was on this forest bathing meet-up, so forest bathing is this Japanese concept of going into the woods to experience the mental, emotional and physical benefits of being out in nature. So I was on this meet-up group, I had never been before, I hadn’t been back since, it was absolutely fantastic, and they were basically teaching us different ways of engaging with the woods: smelling and hearing and engaging all our senses in the forest – absolutely fantastic. It culminated in this little grove of yew trees, up in Newlands Corner in Surrey, and we all kind of walked into this grove and they said: pick a yew tree and just connect with it. They didn’t give any details about what that meant, but I had already been talking with trees by this point, so the second I said that I saw off to the right this yew tree and I was like: that’s my yew. And so, when we split up, I walked straight over to it, and I hugged it, and I just felt this connection with this tree and he just started talking to me. He said: look, I know you are working on this novel, which I was, and it is hard for you, and he said: I have an idea for a topic for a book for you, it is going to be easier. So, why don’t you put your novel on one side, work on this book, and then come back to the novel later. Then, he told me what the book was, and he gave me more details, but I wasn’t out looking for anything, I was just on this forest bathing meet-up group. And I came home so excited about it, super-excited about this topic, because when the tree gave me the idea, I felt so: this is it! And then, once I stepped into the reality of collecting the stories, that was when all the fears and doubts and limiting beliefs about my ability to actually do this got triggered.

Joanna: Super, I don’t know why I had this image of you standing there, and then there was this voice saying: you should write this book and you would be like: who said that? {Both: laughing}

Holly: No it was me hugging this yew tree, I was so overwhelmed with emotion. Yew trees are poisonous by the way, all parts of the yew are poisonous except for the red {berries} which is their fruit, but the seed inside the fruit is poisonous, so don’t eat yews. They had said us: be careful with the yew, don’t… and I was so overwhelmed with emotion, I kissed it, at the end of it, I had so much love for this yew tree that I kissed it’s bark and then I was like: oh my god it is poisonous! {laughing}

Joanna: Oh living on the edge! The danger!

Holly: {laughing} Kissing trees! But that is how I felt, I don’t normally go around kissing trees just so you know!! I was so overwhelmed with emotion by this project that this tree had given me, it was like the only, it was so spontaneous, it wasn’t like: oh now I am going to kiss the tree, it just happened, and then I was like what did I just do?

Joanna: I think an experience like that brings up so many things, first of all there is the can I really do this? Maybe: I am not a channel, or a I am not a good enough channel? Or I just never thought this would be part of my life, kind of thing, right? Then there is the other people judgement stuff, what will people think? I think other people’s judgement, it was well-summarised when you came over that week and spent time with me and my family and told my son that you talk to trees and his little face was like… {Both: laughing}

Holly: Mummy’s friend is crazy! {laughing}

Joanna: He was like: what you are talking about? {laughing}

Holly: Trees don’t talk! {laughing}

Joanna: And we still haven’t convinced him by the way! {laughing}

Holly: No, no, we haven’t. {laughing}

Joanna: So there are two things to talk about I think, because I had the same when I started, I don’t talk to trees, I suppose I could, I do communicate with lots of unseen energies, and beings, whether that is souls, or spirit guides, who are also souls, yeah even ascended masters I have worked with and stuff like that. I have the same thing: am I good enough to do it, am I a channel at all, that’s not something I ever considered myself being, when I first started of course. Then, later, okay I can talk to my guides, but I am certainly not good enough to work with ascended masters, or beings that are known to people, that people would recognise the names of you know, that self-questioning bit; and then the other side: are people going to think I am crazy, am I crazy?

There is a lot entangled in this and I think we will talk about benefits later, to show that it is worth it, but maybe we can start with who can do this, right? Because I think whenever people go into anything new, they think they are the only ones who feel that way and it is just not true, so if you are listening to this, and maybe you have had some experience in hearing some voices, or having some impressions of energies, or messages, or something, and you maybe doubting whether you can actually do this, you can.

Holly: Anyone can do it.

Joanna: Anyone can do it. It is something that, I firmly believe that we are born with that potential, everybody has that potential and we kind of develop it in various ways, whether intentionally, or not intentionally, and so, if you practice you get better, it is like anything else, it is a skill like that. If you are doubting whether you can do it, I think both of us can tell you that you definitely can.

Holly: How did you realise that you had the potential to do this? How did you get started?

Joanna: Oh, I wanted the potential, I wanted to read a book and learn from a book, because when I started, I was doing this intuitive art course where the people who were leading it were channelling and I was like: why don’t I have a spirit guide? I also want a spirit guide, it was really like belonging to the cool club, right? The instructors had spirit guides that they talked to, and then some of the more advanced students in the class, also had spirit guides, you know? And I was just like: I want to be one of the cool kids, I also want a spirit guide! And I remember going to them and going: give me a book and then I will also have a spirit guide and they were like: you are not going to learn this from a book.

Holly: I learned it from a book!

Joanna: Well, in my case they said: you are not going to learn this from a book, that is not how it works. {Holly: really? Interesting!} There are books, but that certainly wasn’t my path, because I am a serial learner and my natural state, despite what I do in my living now, is to be in my head, so that wasn’t my path. Then, eventually, I had to resign myself to not having spirit guide and being one of the lowly {laughing} non-achievers in the group and then it kind of happened one day.

Holly: So, it was like you set the intention and then it happened.

Joanna: Yes, if we are going to be fancy, yes.

Holly: {laughing} It didn’t feel that way?

Joanna: It wasn’t that intentional, it was like: I want this, so, hopefully, some day, I will have it. Since I didn’t know how I had to let it go, I didn’t have any steps, right? I was hoping they would say: read this book, then practice for three weeks, then your spirit guide will come. That was what I wanted {laughing} but not what I got, so I couldn’t get started on a process, because I didn’t have a process, so I had to let it go and let it happen.

When it first happened, I have told this story before, I thought I was crazy, even though I had just spent months and months and months wishing, and hoping, and asking for: when will I get my own spirit guide type thing, when it actually happened, I ignored it, because it really freaked me out. So, I ignored it and I didn’t really tell anyone and the thing in my head wouldn’t really go away and I was like: okay, I suppose I need to address this. So, it is something new, and it doesn’t come naturally to everybody, I think maybe if you grow up in an environment where these things are supported and talked about and whatever it is easier. But, if you grow up, like most of us grow up, where we are kind of taken away from spirit and intuition and all the weird stuff and more into logic and the mind, then it doesn’t come naturally anymore, it is kind of: wait a second, there is something off.

Holly: Because it is not a normal part of your life, you have to learn the skill.

Joanna: Re-learn or remember the skill and then by then you are a full-fledged-mind-dependant being and so it is just a little bit more, I am not going to say harder, it is not harder just more uncomfortable, and you have to be kind of more committed to it, more willing to go in that direction, I would say.

Benefits

Holly: So, why would you go in this direction? What is the benefit of communicating with these unseen beings, why would someone want to get started on this, aside from wanting to be part of the cool club {laughing}?

Joanna: I am a little bit stumped because clearly, I had a totally, non-spiritual, totally horrible reason for wanting to do it, I wanted to belong, right? I wanted to be one of the cool kids.

Holly: But I understand that, because it was like I was aware that there were people who could do this kind of thing, and I also looked up to people like that and it wasn’t so much that I wanted to belong to the cool crowd, but I wanted to have these special abilities, I wanted to be special like them.

Joanna: So, it is coming from a place that is not…it is and it isn’t, it is not right but in a way it is because you have this inkling that you are more, it is not wanting to be special, it is more desiring to feel special again, like you do in your natural state, I think, so maybe looking at it more like that a spark that reminds you of your own potential and who you really are.

Holly: Exactly.

Joanna: So, why would you want to do it? Well, I find that communicating with the world that is beyond the physical, widens my perspective of what is possible. I get a lot of guidance that way, I use all the channelling stuff and the communications stuff, I use that as the how. I know that a lot of teachers say that you shouldn’t focus on the hows, when you are trying to manifest something, or just in general in your life, it is better to just let go of that. I don’t see how that is possible, with the mind I have, I don’t think it is possible to let go of the hows.

Holly: But knowing that, you have to take action some way.

Joanna: And also that.

Holly: So you gotta know what actions to take.

Joanna: So, it never really made sense for me, to let go of the hows. So, I use that spiritual connection or channelling, whatever you want to call that, insight, intuition, whatever you want to call that as my hows. It just gives you some guidance on what to focus on and where that next step is, or where energy needs to be released, or what you are not seeing. So, I think when we just focus on the physical, we are very limited, because not all the energy, if we think that the physical world is energy that has been put into form. Not all the energy of the entire universe has been put into form at this particular moment in time, so there is all this other stuff to tap into beyond what we see physically around us. So, I think it is kind of silly not to tap into it.

Holly: Yeah, but I think it is hard for a lot of people because we are so focussed on physical reality, and stuff that we can see, and touch, and feel, I think it is hard for a lot of people to accept the possibility that there are also things out there that we can’t see.

Joanna: I agree, and I don’t think we can say: is it true, is it not true? I don’t know. Sometimes I say to my husband: I don’t know, I say I have guides and I say I work with these masters, I can’t prove it obviously.

Holly: No, and maybe it is some part of my head that has given me this information, my gut says no that is not the case, but maybe. I think in the beginning when we all start channelling a lot of us think: oh my God am I crazy? But I think the fact that we have that awareness and we can ask that question, to me, is an indicator that no we are not, but who knows, anything is possible.

Joanna: But that is it, we don’t actually know, people see stuff, but the mind is so complex, that, realistically, it is possible that we are all going through some kind of mass hallucination thing and none of this true, that is possible, I don’t think you can deny that because it is a faith thing, right? I firmly believe, but…

Holly: I choose to believe, also.

Joanna: That’s it, right, but when people question that: how can you believe something on blind faith? I always say: for me, all that matters is that my life is better, my life is certainly better, now, than it used to be, before I started doing this. So, for me, it is great, and a lot of other people’s lives are a lot better because I help them as well, so good, it is a good thing.

Holly: To me, that is the ultimate thing. When I hear atheists making fun of people who believe in God, I think: you know, if these people’s lives are better, because they have faith in this higher power, great! Why would you make fun of someone for that? Why would you criticise someone for that? This belief is making their lives better and my belief in tree spirits and nature spirits and spirit guides has made my life better, it has made my life richer. So, maybe it is not true, and it is all in my head, but it has made my life better, it has added a richness to my life.

Joanna: I think people criticise it because, as we all know, in today’s world, some people take it too far. And I think that is the problem, there is a fear there that if you have this blind faith, and then believe in all these things, it can be obviously taken too far, we get violence and killing, and all sorts of stuff, based on faith. So, there is an element of that, but I think as long as you are able to question, I think that is where the mind comes in. So, I talk about this concept of SoulSmart of combining that intuitive spirit side with your logical mind, and I think that part of it is really important. I question stuff, and I love it when my clients question stuff, we have a few people in the SoulSpace in the group I run that ask really difficult questions and every time I am like: ooh goody, something to get really stuck into and really consider how this could work, or why this isn’t quite making sense. I think that is a really good thing, so certainly question, right?

Holly: Yeah, absolutely. I think also a lot of people’s reluctance to believe in these kinds of things, I think it stems from childhood. Because, as children we are taught to believe in Santa Claus, or Father Christmas, we are taught to believe in the Tooth Fairy, we are taught to believe I the Easter Bunny, all these things and then there gets to be a point, where we realise that they are not real, and our parents have been lying to us, and there is a lot of shame. I have a different background, because my mother never wanted to lie to me, so I never believed in Santa, but we pretended. So, I would leave out the milk and cookies, I would leave out the carrots for the Easter bunny, I would leave out my teeth, but knowing that it wasn’t real but I would play along, so I have a different background to this but for people who did believe I imagine that when you got to the point where some kids were like, ‘Santa isn’t real’, there must have been a lot of shame around: oh my God I still believe this and everyone else knows that it is not true.

Joanna: Oh my God, this has to be, after we record this podcast, we are going to have to talk about this {laughing}, because I think I have a load of stuff around this, because my child still believes in all that stuff. Sometimes I believe that it is a good thing because yeah, it makes his life better, it makes is life more magical, but on the other side I am like: he is getting quite big now and I am like, that day when he finds out and everyone else knows except for him, I am really worried about psychological implications. I don’t know anyone who has been traumatised by this, so, hopefully, it will be a smooth transition I don’t remember finding out myself, my husband either, I don’t know anybody for whom this is a thing, so hopefully it will be okay. {laughing}

Holly: {laughing} Or maybe they are just not talking about it but insider they are traumatised.

Joanna: Thanks for that Holly!

Holly: Sorry! {laughing}

Joanna: But it is true, I wasn’t thinking about the shame or whatever, I have never heard that associated with stopping believing in the childhood stuff, but I know there is a lot of: you are too old to believe in it now.

Holly: Exactly, like: you should know better.

Joanna: Like, clearly the Easter Bunny doesn’t come and bring you chocolate. I had this conversation with my son quite recently actually, I keep saying: I don’t know if he Easter Bunny will come this year, because I think you are too big. And he is like: No! I don’t really know…

Holly: {laughing} He is like: I definitely need my basket of chocolate, so the Easter Bunny will be here! Don’t send him away if he knocks at the door!!

Joanna: But we are told we are too old, so it is like that we are encouraged to leave all that magical stuff in the world of childhood, then it feels weird, as a proper grownup, with responsibilities and a real life.

Magical adult life

Holly: So, how do you combine this, how do you still believe in the magic and have a successful, adult, life?

Joanna: Yeah, I think this is it, right? The problem with a lot of this stuff, I think part of the reason we are uncomfortable talking about it to regular people, or people who don’t dabble, let’s say, who don’t believe, or aren’t really interested, so this is the stereotype, right? The stereotype is that if someone talks to trees there are a little bit loopy. {Holly: yeah!} It is that person in the village with the flowy skirts and the flowers and I don’t know there is a stereotype, right? And a little bit loopy is probably a good description of it.

Holly: That’s probably the nice description, there are probably many other not so nice descriptions. {laughing}

Joanna: Probably and when you hear the word channelling, even I kind of have a tendency to sometimes go into this stereotype of Madame whatever, with the crystal ball at the country fair, because that’s the image we grow up with, right? When you talk about things like talking to trees or channelling spirits or whatever, the people are portrayed in a certain way, so we take that on board, and I think part of the reason is we don’t want to be seen like that.

Holly: So how do we not stereotype these things?

Joanna: Well, I guess by allowing ourselves to be ourselves, to not be those stereotypes and actually talk about this stuff to regular people. I have found when I talk about this stuff sometimes people will go: okay, bye! Really, really, quickly, but sometimes they are fascinated, people who I would never thought to have any interest in any of this stuff are like: oh yeah, I have read this, and I have read this. Maybe they are not doing it themselves.

Holly: Yeah, but they are interested, there is a part of their being that connects with that and wants to learn more.

Joanna: Yeah, so how do we break stereotypes? By kind of not being the stereotype. Not being the loopy hippy one if we are not, if that is not who we naturally are, so we can be a professional business woman, or an official in the post office or something, whatever, and still talk about this stuff and be a normal person, wearing normal H&M clothes and drinking normal Starbucks coffee {laughing} I don’t really know what normal is, so this isn’t a good portrayal…

Holly: Well, according to you it was me in the woods with a can of coke, at the beginning of this episode. {laughing}

Joanna: Yeah, coke is a good normal memory. {laughing}

Holly: So yes, I think it is like living lives, holding down a job, being a responsible adult, and at the same time doing this stuff.

Joanna: Yeah, this wasn’t the conclusion I thought we would come to, but in fact it is that, it is the authenticity, actually allowing yourself, coming out of the closet, not keeping this stuff secret, but the only way that we are going to make it normal is by talking about it as if it’s normal.

Holly: And that’s the hard thing for me. I have done so much mindset work on this over the last year, my god, but still I have more to do, because I can feel myself when I talk about this book with certain people, I can feel myself kind of being like: yeah, I talk to trees, and not presenting it as if it’s normal, because I am aware that this person that I am talking to might judge me for it.

Joanna: So I think there is more work to be done.

Holly: Absolutely.

Joanna: Because that is definitely the answer, I am feeling that really, really, strongly right now, for all of us, talk about it as if it is normal because it is, it is not crazy, it is not loopy, it is not any of those things. By giving it names like “woo woo” I think we are playing into the stereotypes, it is like here is this normal life and also: I do this really weird woo woo stuff, on the side but don’t tell too many people!

Holly: I remember years ago I did this episode on, and you were on it, talking to five “woo” experts, but one of the things that Cara Wilde said, who was also on that episode, she said: it is not woo, it is normal, this is my normal. So she also took offence to the word woo and I totally get that, and I haven’t used that word as much lately, but I felt like for a long time that was kind of my gateway to talking to people about this, acknowledging that it is a bit weird, which is the exact opposite of what I think we should be doing which is talking about it as if it is normal.

Joanna: Yeah exactly, we have made it a normal part of our lives. My whole business is built around this idea that adding that intuitive, soulful, spiritual, channel-y side, you are just adding it to who you already are. You are just adding it, it is not replacing you, you are not going to be a weird person from now on if you give into these nudges to explore that part of you; and, in fact, I really think as long as we are keeping it separate and not using it, we are not acting from a place of wholeness, which means that we can never and I really believe this, never, achieve, or grow into our full potential. Because if you are not coming from wholeness you cannot achieve the wholeness of what is available to you, so it is a really, really, important thing for more people to accept this part of themselves and start using it, right? And now that we are talking about it, I guess that it is part of our role, Holly?

Holly: I think so, I feel like this book is a huge turning point for me because I have already started getting it out there more than other books, and I have already started talking about this with a wider audience of people. So I feel like this is a turning point for me in talking about this stuff with a wider audience of people. And I was talking to my publicist and she was saying: this is how we can spin it, and this is our angle, and I think we should get this out to some mainstream media. And I was like: I know this is what I am paying her for, but I don’t want to do this. And she was like: and I think we need to go with a little bit of a sensationalist vibe to it, because that’s what is going to attract people. And I was like: I don’t want to do this. But I do, because I want to get it out there, but I am so scared of the judgement. I know I need to suck it up and do it and do the mindset work, so it is less painful.

Joanna: I mean don’t “suck it up and do it” do we?

Holly: I know, but I need to step outside my comfort zone and do it, rather than staying safe where I am and just being quiet about it and mentioning my book to my channelling friends.

Joanna: But that’s it, and I totally, totally, get that. For you, you need to align first, and act after, becoming the person who was comfortable doing that; but I totally get it, I have stopped going to social functions, I have stopped participating in normal life. Honestly, I kind of have tears in my eyes right now, because I am only realising how significant this is, while we are recording this live, so it is a little bit weird. {laughing}

Holly: This podcast might get emotional guys! {laughing}

Joanna: I am getting so much insight, live, on air, and we don’t have to air it, but we will. I am realising that I have really stepped out of any sort of normal life, I don’t go to parties, I don’t go out for dinners, I don’t see anybody. I talk to people online, but they are people I am comfortable talking to, and it is because I remember when I stopped, I just said: I don’t want to go to things where I can’t comfortable say that I work with fairies or the Yeshua Jesus energy, but the problem with that is that I put the fault for that with them: they don’t understand.

Holly: When it is not them it is us. {laughing}

Joanna: Really, the fault is with me, as to be comfortable talking about it, I need to look at it as normal and not different to normal life.

Holly: We need to take responsibility for how we have these conversations with people. And the second you said fairies, a couple of the trees in my book talk about the fey energy and the fairies and I was like: god damn it, now I have to talk about fairies in my book, another weird thing, how am I going to explain this to people? Because I do believe the energies are out there in the woods, and a lot of times, I feel things that I cannot see, and I know it is them. It scares the crap out of me to take a stand and say: I believe in fairies, I believe in nature spirits, I believe in these energies…

Joanna: And it is normal!

Holly: And it is normal.

Joanna: This is so, so, so, important, because I don’t think we are doing anybody any favours by keeping this stuff to spiritual contexts, and spiritual magazines, it is like preaching to the choir.

Holly: Exactly.

Joanna: We know how beneficial this stuff is, we know that there is wisdom there, and our role is to be normal about it instead of hiding out, I personally have been hiding out and I am going to make a public commitment. I actually yesterday accepted an invitation to a big party, an old friend’s 50th birthday, with everybody I have ever known, not ever, but a lot of people I haven’t seen in many, many years and I just accepted this. I was thinking about that about why I felt comfortable accepting that, and now this is bringing up another layer to it and now I am going to go and not hide what I have been doing for the last few years.

Holly: And have conscious conversations with people.

Joanna: Conscious conversations.

Holly: And I would say perhaps do some mindset work before, to make it easier for you to do that, I am making notes as we are doing this episode, not just for the show notes, but also for myself on mindset work that I need to do to talk about this as if it were normal, because it is normal.

Joanna: Our podcast, part group therapy!!!

Holly: Yes! {laughing} Listen to our show and witness our personal transformation on air! {laughing}

Joanna: It’s good, there is wisdom everywhere, I totally believe that, there is no point having conversations if we don’t grow, so it is all good.

Is it becoming more normal?

Holly: I absolutely agree. So we are talking about our need to talk about these things like they are normal. So do you think this kind of thing is becoming more normal or more common? Are more people opening up to this, are more people experiencing this? Or has it always been a thing and we just haven’t talked about it?

Joanna: I think that it has been more secretive, only in like, I don’t know, Freemason organisations or something, or like in men’s clubs in London, I get that impression a little bit, obviously we also had wise women and witches and all of that in actual communities.

Holly: And they got burned.

Joanna: And they got burned. But I feel like more regular people, logical people, people that are down to earth, that aren’t necessarily suddenly hearing voices or seeing aliens, or ghosts, or things. People are intrigued, and they are intrigued enough to explore. I see there is still a real barrier to the actual doing. So, I ran a course on working with spirit guides years and years ago, and I was super surprised that not more people wanted to join in on that, and when I asked the people who had expressed interest but didn’t sign up etc. a lot of them actually said that they didn’t believe that they could do it. They were expecting that they would try, and that nothing would happen for them. So, they understood that some other people did it.

Holly: Right, but I am not special enough.

Joanna: I am not special enough, so there is that, I think people are more intrigued, but I think a lot of people still think that it is not something that they could personally experience, or experience in a safe way. I think there is also a lot of fear around: what if I get possessed by an evil energy or something.

Holly: And I think that is something that we should explore: was this scary for you when you first stated doing it? Did you ever connect with any scary energies or were you just afraid?

Joanna: I don’t actually believe that we need to protect ourselves and I personally don’t believe that, apparently there are some things out there that you wouldn’t want to connect with, I have never really delved into that side of it and I really don’t have any interest in that, and I trust that by asking my guides to protect me, that that is enough. So I feel protected from all that and I don’t see it an issue and I encourage, if you don’t see it as an issue, then I encourage you to also simplify it and just ask your own guides, or Angels, or whatever, to protect you in this way and then don’t think about it again.

Holly: Yeah exactly, I don’t dwell, I don’t do a lot of protection stuff either. I years ago made contact with my guardian angel and I just ask her to protect me from stuff and I trust.

Joanna: I do clear energy, or my husband does, that is one of his responsibilities in the house, is to say to the house, whenever I get to a point where I am not sleeping very well, he needs to say to the house {laughing}. So we do clear energy, because energy does get stuck, and that could be from other entities as well as from us and anything we bring in and obviously since I communicate with other things, I bring in a lot of stuff into the house. So clearing energy is a good idea, I think. I think like with anything if you approach it from the energy of love, rather than fear?

Holly: Yes, that’s very powerful.

Joanna: I think that is enough.

Holly: And if you set the intention, I just mentioned Cara from that episode a while ago, but she always talks about setting the intention to connect with the crème de la crème of the spirit guides. Set the intention to connect with the highest level guides that are available to you right now, rather than the lower one.

Joanna: That is really cool actually, I have never heard that before.

Holly: I have heard her say that so many times and I love it, because it is setting the intention to work with the highest level.

Joanna: Yeah, I really like that, I mean your intention is super powerful so use that right. And is it scary? Yeah but it is scary, I found that it was scary in a comfortable way, kind of like: I don’t really know what is happening, way. I didn’t feel threatened, the only time I felt threatened was when I experienced the parallel realities thing, which, if you are interested in that send me an email or something that is not for this episode. That was scarier.

Holly: Yeah, oh absolutely.

Joanna: Things around me changed, physically, I could see changes which was scarier. With this it was just scary because it was uncomfortable, I didn’t really know what to do with it. It was a change to my normal, and it is kind of like this out of your comfort zone scary, which is different to I am going to be eaten by a bear scary.

Holly: For me, if I am at home in the comfort of my home, and I am connecting with spirt guides, I have never been scared. But there have been many times when I have been out in the woods alone, and I can sense energies that I haven’t called to me, they are just doing their thing, and that does scare me. And I talk about this a little bit in the book, and I was really debating about whether to tell this story about something that happened to me in the woods at one point. Nothing happened it was just like all of a sudden, I felt this really beautiful energy, I was connecting with a tree, it was wonderful, and then I stood up and I walked out of the tree because I had been in the tree trunk, and it was like the energy shifted and I felt something. And I was so scared that I walked a full circle around the tree to see if I could see anything and of course I couldn’t see anything, there was no one there, there was nothing there that I could see, but I knew that something was there, and it scared the crap out of me. So, again, I was not sure whether to include the story in the book, and I still don’t know how to reconcile this, because what the heck was it? Was it that I was scared because there was an energy there that I didn’t expect? It surprised me? Was it something that was a bit dark? I don’t know. And the fact that I can’t see it scares me too, because I rely a lot on my vision, and being a visual person, so when I feel that something is there, yeah, I don’t know.

Joanna: Yeah, it could have been like you were bathed in the love and light of this tree and it was almost like the stark difference in energy.

Holly: Yeah, it might have been. And it might have been just that it caught off guard, and not expecting this other energy, it might have been that. Of course, I kind of spiralled into this panic and I thought okay, I was really deep in the woods and I was like: I have to get out of the woods, it is going to start getting dark soon, I have to get back to my car. I pull out my phone to check the map and my battery goes from 40% to 0% and then I am like: oh my God! reading all these things into it, when does that ever happen to my phone, never, clearly something is wrong here, and I put on my backpack and speed walked out of the woods.

Joanna: Oh my god, okay that is scary. {laughing}

Holly: Yeah, but, again, I think that was me freaking out. I think perhaps if I had allowed myself to stay there and talked to the thing, and say: hey, what are you doing?

Joanna: I don’t know, it is really hard to know, to be honest, I don’t really know much about this, because it doesn’t interest me as much, but some of the things I have read clearly state that there is a whole kind of battle going on, and there are dark energies and there are dark energies on earth. But, again, it is what you choose to focus on that really matters. I think there will always be stuff that we, it could be scary because it is evil, or it could feel scary because we don’t know what it is. {Holly: Exactly} Part of this working with things that we can’t see, thing, process, is getting comfortable with the unknown, and just knowing, or choosing to believe we are safe, and okay, even if we don’t really understand everything and just being okay with not knowing, what happens next, what that was, what is really going on in the spirit realm, whether the spirit realm really exists, or whether this is all in your head and you are crazy. I think all of that, we have to be comfortable with that.

Holly: Absolutely, and I think that was why I was so scared of putting that story in the book, because I don’t have any explanations for it. I can’t be like: so I felt this weird thing, I high-tailed it out of the woods and this is what happened: this, this, this and this. I still don’t have an explanation for it. So I think that was really uncomfortable for me to share this story in the book and say: I don’t know what was going on here.

Joanna: I think that is really important to acknowledge that, that it is okay to talk about things that we don’t understand. Especially, I know a lot of people listening to this also run businesses of some kind, and entrepreneurship of some kind, and I think this is a really important takeaway that we don’t often have conversations about things that we haven’t quite figured out yet. We like to appear like we have it figured out, and like we have the answers, so we have conversations where we are teaching, and we participate in conversations trying to contribute with something specific, or something useful for the others. We try to be useful and part of the solution and all those kind of terms, but I actually, we have talked about this before Holly, there isn’t enough I don’t think, conversation about things that we don’t really understand and without this need to come to a conclusion.

Holly: And books, because I feel like when you write a book you are supposed to be the expert, and I am totally not the expert on this topic but yet I have written a book about it and it is coming out next month. So I think it is being willing to speak and write and express the fact that we don’t have all the answers to everything.

Joanna: Yeah and explore the things to which we don’t have answers. Maybe there needs to be more space for that in the world, I know in the SoulSpace when we had a conversation about healing, we had it as part of a book club meeting. There was no point to that conversation beyond kind of talking about the concepts in the book, and I haven’t organised another yet, but I will, because people were really, really, happy to have that space, to just have a conversation about healing; and what it is, what it isn’t, how I feel about it, do I this, do I that, just without any conclusion, without any expectation to learn three new things or start a process, none of that stuff, just space to explore in our busy lives, and our achievement-centred society, I think that is really lacking.

Holly: Yeah, more space to explore.

Joanna: Yes.

Holly: And I am aware as we have been talking about this, we have titled this: talking to unseen beings, but there are people who do see. {Joanna: yes} So I think that is also important to bring up, because if someone goes into this and they start seeing things don’t freak out, because that is also normal.

Joanna: It is, so I am going to bring it back to fear, I know that I just said that we should always approach these things from love and not fear, but I do have a fear that I haven’t been able to shift out of or I have chosen not to shift out of, I have a fear of seeing unseen things and I very early on, made it very, very, clear to my guides that I am going to quit in a second if I see anything, so nobody is allowed to visually show me anything. Because I would wake up in the middle of the night with my heart pounding and be scared to walk to the bathroom, I would be so afraid that I would see a ghost or some kind of entity and I would totally, totally, freak out. So I have an agreement that I can see stuff in dreams, and I sense rather than see, I don’t even hear, even you said you hear a voice in your head. I don’t hear, I sense energy and translate into words, that’s the best way I can describe it, but we have a very strict agreement that I don’t see anything.

Holly: Okay, I am kind of on the fence about that: on one hand I know I would be scared if I saw something but on the other hand I really want to see.

Joanna: Okay, no I really don’t want to. You guys if you are listening.

Holly: Set the intention for what you want.

Joanna: That is okay too, it is not part of this topic, but maybe it is actually.

Holly: It is because it is setting the intention for how you want to engage with these energies.

Joanna: So, when I teach this, I always say that it is a relationship like any other, so you have time so you can start seeing how this feels, or how they communicate, how you receive information, so it is a relationship that you will only get to know with time and practice and also as part of that relationship you are allowed to set boundaries, just like you are in a normal human relationship. You are allowed to say, this is okay, this is not okay. A lot of people only channel, or talk to these beings, in a certain container. So they will have a ritual where they will open the lines of communication, I never wanted that, so from the beginning said I want the communication lines to be open all the time, so I don’t open and close, well sometimes I close.

Holly: Enough!

Joanna: Enough, now Netflix. {laughing} In general I always have access. That is always how I have wanted to do it, but you can set that relationship, you can shape that relationship and those boundaries in whatever way you want.

Holly: I think that is super-key, because we are so used to engaging in relationships with other people, whom we can see, touch feel, that they are there, they are very tangible. Sometimes I feel, it took me a long time to understand the concept that you can build a relationship with unseen energies as well, it is just the same kind of thing. It is like: now I am starting this plant-spirit-initiation apprenticeship and we are doing a lot of Shamanic journeys and I have connected with my power-animal, my power-animal has changed, and I realised that I never built a relationship with my previous power-animal. And now I really want to, but I realise that that responsibility is on me.

Joanna: Yeah, and the relationship means that you have set aside time to actually communicate, that you listen, that you learn, all those kinds of things. I think that part of the reason why we don’t look at that as a relationship is that we tend to naturally put those beings above us. The guides repeatedly say to, certainly in my context and in the work that I do, they remind us that they are not above, we are all on the same level, it is just that we are currently down here and don’t have as much access to the wisdom that they have access to right. We are kind of in different places at the moment, but it is still an equal relationship and you can’t expect them to tell you what to do, or that if you connect with them then they will posses you in some way and make you do stuff that you don’t want to do. You still have full control over all that. I think that is important to say as well.

Holly: Yeah, it is. I feel like we have this almost hour-long conversation about this, but we haven’t address one thing, what are these beings that we are connecting with? We have talked about spirit guides, we have talked about ascended masters, we have talked about nature spirits, what other things are out there which people might want to connect with?

Joanna: I don’t know fairies, your own higher self.

Holly: Absolutely. Spirits, ancestors.

Joanna: You might want to, yes. I don’t think it really matters what they are to be honest. I think if you start with your higher self, your spirit guides, whichever one you choose. Then you see what happens, where you are led to, and follow those nudges if it feels like something you are curious about. Yeah, and I don’t think we can really define it to be honest. I don’t know, I don’t think it is important to try, because I don’t think we can, because I don’t think from our vantage point, we can actually understand how it works.

Holly: And the guides that we work with can change, sometimes they come in to help us with something specific or in a specific period of our lives and then they go away and someone else comes.

Joanna: yeah, it is just developing that willingness and ability to connect with something that you can’t see. Then you get to choose what you connect in with. People work with ascended masters or like angels for different sorts of things, so explore.

Holly: So, what is the best advice you might have for someone who wants to get started on this?

Joanna: Interesting, set aside time?

Holly: Yes.

Joanna: I don’t know! I think it is so different for everybody. If you want to talk to trees, then read Holly’s new book. I think if you set that intention and you go and ask the tree a question or something, just let yourself receive what is there, then the trick is to trust that that’s where it is coming from. If it’s coming from your spirits guides, or yourself or a higher entity, the main thing is the trust thing, that what you are getting isn’t just in your head, that it is something. And the filter that I put that trough is whether it is useful to me or not rather than is it real or not because I don’t think that is a conversation that is worth having because we don’t know, but it is better to say why, is it not specific enough or whatever. You just keep asking more questions.

Holly: And, that’s something that you are really good at, getting useful information from your guides.

Joanna: That’s because I have had many years of frustrating trust and love messages that I couldn’t do anything with. {laughing} This, again, is part of the relationship building, right? So my guides and any entities know what kind of information I need now. So I get really, really, specific stuff it is true, but I have had to ask for that, and I am willing for that because I think you have to, I don’t know, have to kind of bow before the entities.

Holly: And accept what you are given.

Joanna: Which I am never good at just accepting what I am given {laughing} so that is a personality thing, you know? So how to get started? Set aside some time, pretend you are connecting in with your guides. It is hard to say how you started because we are not talking about a specific entity or anything, if it is your guides, then visualise, see in your mind’s eye, would be like to meet them and then kind of see what happens.

Holly: Oh good. All right, I agree, get comfortable with not knowing exactly what you are doing and then get out thee and give it a try, set the intention.

Joanna: If you are really interested in this and not really knowing where to start, then let me know. I help people with this all the time, and I am pretty confident that I can help you too.

Holly: Yay, all right, let’s wrap this up then. If anyone has any questions, they can email you at:

Joanna: [email protected], or just PM me on Facebook or Instagram.

Holly: And I am: [email protected] and I am not spending much time on Facebook these days, but I do check my messages there, so feel free to message me. Let us know if you have any questions and good luck on your journey.

296 Joanna Hennon + Holly: Talking to Unseen Beings: Is it Enlightened, or Just Crazy?